The reason timers exist is largely because it’s almost impossible to completely fail a dungeon of any level. And if you do, it’s only because things start 1 shotting you. And that’s just not fun content.
WoW dungeons have never been designed as content you can “fail” since when you die all the mobs are still dead, and the bosses are very limited in what mechanics they can have when you only have 1 healer and 1 tank. So they’ve never been something you are intended to wipe multiple times to.
So they had to add some mechanic that let people do dungeons which were neither face roll nor 1 shotting people. The timer does that pretty well. Dungeons feel like they are intended to be and can naturally fit in for all skill levels.
Good question. I dont actually have an answer which is why I think the modern design fails. I guess the delay of LFR means Normal is the first way to see the content, however, yes once LFR is released there is no point to go beyond just LFR from my perspective.
If they could keep LFR>Normal>Heroic>Mythic with a progression path outside of challenge for the sake of challenge it would be different. If there was a Raid specific story being told that only concluded in Mythic, that wasn’t tied to the main story, it would be enough. Perhaps a mini Onyxia style raid they gave after beating Mythic.
Just something, atm your question is the ultimate failure in progression design, because its absolutely valid.
Players have a bad habit of making the game unfun for themselves if they are able to. (This is true in most games) And a timer is a very simple way to ensure you are playing at a tuning level where the trash and bosses need to played smartly but you aren’t lusting for every pack of trash as would happen if there’s no timer and people pushed for a +40 or something.
Normally whenever Blizz tries to over complicate things to get a result, it fails horribly. Timer is simple. It works. Keep it.
I’d disagree that it’s a failure. The system gives you what you’re looking for in story progression while also offering things for those of us interested in power progression.
Pretty much this. People will go from failing 12’s because they can’t beat the timer, to failing 16’s or 17’s because Cragmaw or Yazma just utterly ruins their group.
And having failed keys due to both being unable to get past a “wall” and failing a timer, I’ll take failing the timer any day of the week.
each dungeon can come with a Timed challenge for competition sake and still not punish you if you fail. It would be great for those who want to compete and those who don’t want to be bound by the time and still get rewarded for finishing successfully. What’s so wrong with that?
I’ve never seen the benefit of a timed dungeon. Instances should be fun, as well as rewarding. Sure, make things challenging and difficult, but just putting a ticking clock there doesn’t make it any more fun. If they want things to be challenging then add extra mobs or bosses the higher you go. Or put in extra paths you have to use in the instance to complete it. Or increase the % of mobs that have to be killed.
There are plenty of ways to make Mythic+ fun. The clock is almost there just to get people to try and figure ways to get around it.
This is the case right now. Finish the run, get a drop and your weekly. And you get a key that you are more likely to be able to time for your next run.
Your statement is contradictory to itself. Of course the timer is there for people to try and figure out how to get around it. Aren’t all challenges?
Without a timer, you’ll see people literally waiting for heroism CD to pull trash on dungeons that are way beyond their skill or gear levels.
Again, the timer is there “for show.” If you don’t care about it, put “No Leave” on your group title and you can ignore it. I don’t know why it’s a problem.
All of these only really take longer to do, they’re not really any more challenging. And doing stuff like adding bosses or different pathways in an infinitely scaling system would require way more resources than the timer from the dev team.
Yes. It makes m+ more competitive. If the key just upgraded no matter what when you completed the dungeon everyone would have really high keys done at the end of a season. I mean, I’m not insane at m+ but pretty sure I could knock out Some really high keys if I had all day for 1 dungeon. Besides, if you like “exploring” dungeons, then go in without a key. If you like “taking your time”, then by all means spend 4 hours in a keystone. It’s up to you. The timer is just there for a goal for the players who view m+ competitively
Things are only challenges if they are intended. If it’s players trying to rort the system, that’s not succeeding at a challenge. It’s simply finding a trick way of avoiding the challenge. And where it happens it should be considered a bug and fixed.
And so what if they wait for a CD? If they want to take half an hour to do something, go for it. If people want to spend hours of their lives doing that ingame, let them. That appears to be precisely the philosophy for Torghast.
It was my understanding that M+ was popular for the reward. As in, the actual gear etc reward. I assume that people do them because they get something from them. While there may be things in the game that are simply fun to do regardless of reward, I think most people would agree that they do M+ for the stuff they get for doing it. Where dungeons of any sort provide suitable rewards, people redo them.
Ya but you aren’t rewarded with a higher key. The argument most people are making is they don’t want the challenge to be doing it in time. They want the challenge being able to do it successfully. With this system you could have both. If you do it in time your key levels faster. If you do it and complete it your key levels slower.
This makes no sense at all. When you see a rock in front of you, and you can either walk around it or punch through it, which one do you take? Both ways get you where you want to go, but you can’t say one is cheating and one is not. This is what makes M+ fun, planning your route, know what to pull and when to pull, plan your CDs. Not just brute force trying to kill adds. If that’s what you wanna do WQs are there for you.
Nothing wrong with that, like I said you can ignore timer if you want to. However, with keystone upgrading without timer then people are doing content their gear or skill aren’t suited for, which will only bring frustration. You might think it’s fun to take 4 hours to do one dungeon “for the first time.” How about the second, or third time?
Your understanding is wrong. People pushing keys higher than +15 aren’t doing it for the gear. We are doing it because it’s fun.
The ICC trio were epic. Fireball, fireball, fireball, PYRO (spell reflect) BLAST… someone want to rez the mage again?
Mythic oven mitts!
+5 cooking
+10 fire resist
Chance on craft of creating a second copy for free.
I’m not the one you’re asking, but I’ll put my 2 copper in.
With a guild group/friends I’ll go anywhere and try anything without issue. Give me my orders and let’s go.
I can’t pug. The way I’m wired prevents me from running with random groups. It’s difficult to explain, but basically if my failure can/will cause the group as a whole to not succeed I can’t volunteer.
Crabby on the forums as well. I loved that little guy.
I’ve only run a few way back when, so I have no input on current conditions, that said;
I’d just like for the keyholder to have one “pause” of limited duration (cannot be used in combat). Someone DC’s, drops the run, etc you have X time to recover.
It’d be way too rewarding if people could just keep missing the timer and continue increasing their drops and gear. Might as well just put in a limiter and if your group hits 2 hours you automatically get your end of dungeon loot and upgraded key.