Wow this is a rather accurate rendition. The ones where they manage to stumble across are the .3 patches usually.
The OP was wrong to try and be antagonistic and pick fights for no reason other than to harass people who thought differently. The MVP voiced their opinion that the need for optimization stems from the community rather than the game itself and explained that they were excited for RPG components. How does that equate to telling someone they are simply wrong for enjoying the game the way they want? Especially when the community consists of a wide variety of players whose opinions range from agreeing with them to being staunchly against their stance to simply not caring? They even acknowledge that a change to the current system is likely and that they support it given the playerbase’s sentiments, though they also expressed that they disagree with said sentiments and the idea that the playerbase should be in full control of the game’s direction.
Ironically, he deleted his most blatant post doing this but i can still link a tidbit of it
The problem with covenants is the community.
The senseless need for maximization when you can’t even execute your rotation perfectly…
this is no longer an RPG, and this community doesn’t want it to be.
(you can see it quoted here https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/covenant-system-design-flaws-discussion/611673/15?u=æither-bleeding-hollow)
In a vaccuum, none of those is a big deal. But that’s basically his entire recent post history - every single one is aiming some sort of ire towards the community he was selected as an “MVP” of. And when you respond to the persistent shots taken towards the community you feel apart of, uh oh! You’re the toxic one!
and almost always it’s because the “community” plays the game differently than how he envisions.
I could seriously spend 5 more minutes and dig up another 10-15 quotes all under the same tone and all always referencing the “community.”
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I’ve wondered about a two system option. One would be the covenants and the story, aesthetic, etc. would be tied up in that choice. Meanwhile Blizzard can conjure up a different justification for the player powering up and that would be the gameplay progression.
They would probably have to change the flavor of a lot of the abilities and soulbinds, but it would make a system where things are more easily swap-able make more sense and maybe even feel a bit better for the players because their strength isn’t coming from Joe Shmoe.
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I agree with him that there is a problem with this community.
This^ is so true. But we all have to be careful when we point out problems, the entire community is not to blame. But it is bad right now, alot of players just look at others as a means to get what they want, like they’re just pixels or .io numbers.
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It’s far more likely that you are just more exposed to things that you were not always exposed to and are not necessarily problems; problematic for YOU is not a problem overall. In that case, raider IO and M+ “leavers” are not a real problem overall, but you may not like them.
And that’s what I mean. he doesn’t like them so he blames the community for this “problem” that isn’t actually a problem to the community he is addressing. that’s classic “my way is right your way is wrong” mentality.
There is literally nothing wrong with caring about your score. Scoreboards have been part of video games since forever.
Regardless of individual opinions of IO, that person is CONSTANTLY making blanket statements about the overall community when people are doing something that he doesn’t like. That’s what I meant with what I said earlier.
It would be akin to me saying “THIS COMMUNITY SUCKS!!!” because people are mount farming and I don’t like mounts.
Not to mention, the reasons people treat others/score/keys that way could be entirely because of system design (failed keys = huge loss for one player and shallow loss for 4 players)
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Because a Covenant choice that you pick because you “identify” with it should only be related to that sort of RP/story choice. And if it was, then that would be fine, we’d all be happy to make that selection.
But it isn’t. When you tie abilities to a choice, naturally players are going to want the best for their character. Who in the name of all that is Lightforged would want to choose a subpar ability?
I say this - what if this had happened in Legion, where you not only earned rep with one of the Broken Isles factions, but made some sort of oath to them and dedicated your character to their service? And what if that dedication came with extra abilities that were not purely cosmetic but impactful on your game, and were locked to that faction? Would people have found Legion to be so much fun in that case?
What I believe should be done is this: the Covenant abilities are earned by becoming renowned with the Covenant and each level of Renown unlocks a new ability etc on the particular Covenant talent tree. If you then go and do stuff for another Covenant, you unlock a similar talent tree as you earn Renown with them. Once you have the ones you want, you can then activate those talent trees by, for example, speaking to an officer of the Covenant and activating the tree. If you decide you want to use the abilities of your second Covenant, you go to that other Covenant officer and activate that one.
That would mean you were still playing, still earning, still participating but also levelling up your abilities as you played. That, to me, would have been a whole lot more fun.
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It’s different in a persistent MMORPG world, this type of game is based on socializing and it has all been poisoned by caste type systems. Bit off topic though, might be worth a new thread.
M+ is not a game mode where you stop and socialize. It’s a time trial. Scoreboards have always been the entire point of time trial game modes. Raider IO just reflects that.
And even still, nobody is saying you HAVE TO USE raider io if you don’t want to… so why is that person blaming the entire community for its existence? He is free to make groups without it and no one would ridicule him for it… so he shouldn’t ridicule others for using it.
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Yes, but your score follows you everywhere.
I think this particular quote is meant more to draw attention to the irony of trying to fine tune your character when your fundamentals are in need of work than to ridicule the maximizing itself, but I’d agree that it is presented poorly.
This is reductive and I agree it’s wrong.
But the main theme of what they posted, and the context of those quotes, wasn’t even about the covenants. Their comment cited covenants as a symptom of a larger issue, namely the community climate and the community’s involvement in the design process. They are entitled to that opinion. Telling them they can’t point out perceived issues within the community is trying to stifle them for no reason other than disagreement. You can’t be up in arms about what you see as a slight to you and others who want covenant restrictions lifted and then tell them they can’t point out trends they’ve seen.
Personally, I believe there are issues within the community, though I’d disagree that a relatively small portions desire to play at the highest level they can is the problem. The community can be quite toxic (see the forums), biased, etc. etc. That doesn’t mean anything to anybody else.
They literally do not have another option. If they have identified trends within the community that they take issue with, then how else are they going to describe the issue. It’s all anecdotal, it isn’t like they have a precise list of names and a collated collection of research on what demographics are doing what and who is saying this or that. They are also clearly not implying that it is every single player, “community” is obviously used in a general term to describe large swathes or the overall climate based on their perception. You can’t just tell people to perceive things differently.
And you would be entitled to that opinion. If you thought mounts were the worst thing in the world, who am I to tell you that isn’t an acceptable view. Nobody should be playing thought police.
Everything I quoted of him classifies under your thought process here
don’t know what else to tell you if you don’t see that. You’re just doing what I said you were doing - picking and choosing when your ethics apply and when they don’t. Be consistent or don’t preach my man!
Except it doesn’t. Conflating an individuals disdain for what they perceive to be the overall community climate with them directly attacking someone’s personal thoughts it simply dishonest. I don’t even agree with them, I just don’t think that my opinion invalidates theirs.
That’s why I agreed when you pointed out instances of their rhetoric falling under what I would consider to be inappropriate. But the funny thing is, people have different opinions on even that; that’s why when you post random quotes that consist of them voicing their belief that there are issues within the community alongside legitimate examples of things I believe they shouldn’t have said I can agree with one and not the other.
If the difference between the subjective nature of someone’s personal beliefs and the objective nature of reality still eludes you, then there is nothing left to be said.
Wrong so blatantly wrong . Even casuals are asking for the change because a lot of us know it will affect us more then the hard core players.
Just because a person is a casual doesn’t mean they don’t want to have the best options . Just because a person is a casual doesn’t mean they are satisfied with average.
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I’ve said this a lot but I really hate that the language has shifted to where casual and hardcore are synonymous with skill, and not with how much time you invest in a game.
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Really mate? Borrowed power throughout BFA was 10-60% of your dps, to think Covenants will be anything under 5-10% is far fetched.
It’s something “Give me!” players tend to hide behind. They don’t even play casual hours, but just… don’t want to improve, and yet want it all.
I know a lot of casual players who play 3-4 hours a day max and still clear high content. Those that hide behind “I don’t have time” are usually in that “Give me!” group.
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It’s strange to see so many people acting as if we haven’t had two very major precedents with both Legion and BFA, regarding this system and how well it will be balanced.
Yeah, I obviously have faith in Blizzard and hope they succeed - but it’s already been proven in the past that very similar systems resulted in basically feast or famine depending on what you picked. You either picked the good one, or you may as well have not picked at all.
I wish it were a matter of an astonishingly small difference between each choice, but unless they’ve done a complete 180 on their design paradigm from Legion onward, I severely doubt it will be. And that’s gonna suck for anyone who just wants to play in a covenant for its aesthetic.
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I know it doesn’t matter but you will have Jimmy Lowio who is in his +13 doing exactly what the #1 rated player of his spec is doing religiously who is convinced everyone else has to to finish his ‘big pumpers only’ key.
This is just flat out wrong.
Whether you are pushing LFR with players who have never seen a raid, an AOTC guild looking to clear a boss for the first time or world first there will always be fights that are lost by a small margin, where if a single player had optimized just a bit more then they would have succeed.
I’m not a great player by any means but I can’t tell you the number of times that I’ve missed or passed M+ timers by 30 sec or less.
Yes, if your not pushing world first you can make up for it with skill as well but there is no denying that it can also be made up for by better gearing choices or group comp.
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