And yet THAT is not the motive given to AU Grom in Hellscream. The ONLY motive he is given to even attack the Draenei is because he was made to believe that if he left them alone, they would interfere with the Iron Horde’s invasion of Azeroth (which he felt he needed to do because of Garrosh’s manipulations with Time Visions). Hell, attacking the Blue Goats is the one time AU Grom actually pushes back to Garrosh’s visions a bit. As he does not see the point. There is nothing ideological pushing the need to Genocide the AU Draenei withing Grom’s motives, or the Iron Horde. And the only motive we have at all for why they even bothered attacking them, was to keep them suppressed and contained so they cannot interfere.
EDIT: Truly, this is people conflating the AU Iron Horde with the MU Fel Horde. And if you wanted to make the argument that Grom at least threatened Genocide against several Orcish clans … you’d have ammunition to make that argument. But not with the Draenei given what motive he was given for them specifically.
Orc themes that had been built up as nuanced and complex
I would still argue there are attempts at them being complex, and there just isn’t as much room as their could be/have been. Because, the Orcs got a lot of things expanded on in that expansion, it just apparently wasn’t enjoyable.
I’m sorry, but I’m pretty sure during the Battle of Karabor you fight several Iron Horde soldiers and commanders that fly out of the sky on Iron Stars. So the Iron Horde was very much still a presence, and had set the Shadowmoon on that path in the first place.
Again, what exactly do you think his plans for the Draenei were?? Every chance given to let Draenei civilians go, or take prisoners… the Iron Horde doesn’t. Genocide because he considers them a logistical threat is still genocide because the result is exactly the same.
I don’t think he cared much about what was going on with the Draenei.
His goal was always on Azeroth. He would (and did) only really conflict with them really when they got in the way in some way. There was no “intent” to eradicate them. Nor deliberate effort to do so. Which means its not an attempted Genocide, as he wasn’t trying to purge them as a people, culture, or civilization. Hell, he puts more effort in threatening to eradicate several Orc clans than he does the Draenei during the course of that story (which shows he is at least capable of the threat with a proper motive).
The point is this. AU Grom is guilty of many, MANY crimes. As is his Iron Horde. But weirdly, based on the content we have, an attempted genocide of the Draenei people was not one of them. Its a technicality, but given his actual motives for attacking them … its an important one. That group has plenty on their shoulders to condemn, there truly is no need to conflate them with their MU counterparts so much.
The point is this. AU Grom is guilty of many, MANY crimes.
Including genocide. But, rounding it back to OP. Obviously Yrel is supposed to forgetter Orc’s genocide. Why would any Orc ever suffer from their own mistakes. Orcs died to you know.
I’m not really one to dismiss genocide on a technicality. I feel there’s about as much merit to calling the Iron Horde’s intent and actions towards the Draenei not genocide as there is to calling the War of Thorns genocide.
The Iron Horde was a few steps away from making their own little roadway project without Fel magic, without Felblood, with only a single vision that only Grom was privy to as motivation. They extended a hand towards their most hated enemies while giving no chances to the one race that had never picked a fight with them.
Frankly conflating them to their MU counterparts is an insult to the MU counterparts, at least they took some time to corrupt. Granted, Chronicle also ruins that, but even so. Everyone got a chance to be in the special Iron Horde club, and only those who rebuffed were set on. Draenei did not, Draenei were set upon at every turn.
If you don’t see the intent to eradicate them present, I question whether you’ve played through WoD much at all.
In no way is she expected to forgot what the Iron Horde did. Its just not listed as a motive in her Sermon of the High Exarch for her crusade. Neither is the death of Draenor for that matter. It also doesn’t justify her crusade extending beyond ex members of the Iron Horde. Including every single Orc that did resist them, and every other indigenous culture on AU Draenor. The 30 year stay of execution on reciprocation for the events of WoD is one thing, but she’s dragging in 3rd parties (and even once Allies) in her “unity under the Light” ideology.
I question if you payed attention to the events of WoD, beyond the victimization of Yrel? Because truly, I played the crap out of WoD, and even I was surprised how lacking in investment the Iron Horde was against the immortal being next to them. They threw more forces at FFR than they did Shadowmoon for goodness sake; and if they were really gunning for the Draenei, why the absolute hell are there any left by the time we get there? You’d think they’d wipe them out before opening the Dark Portal.
And military actions against an opposing political entity are not inherently Genocidal. Until you can actually show that the Iron Horde or AU Grom actually intended to exterminate the Draenei as a people … or the Draenei were genuinely at risk of that extermination as a byproduct of what the Iron Horde was doing … not really a “Genocide”. And really, there is not that intent, and the Draenei weren’t really that at risk. I think the Demons screw with them more in Talador than the Iron Horde did. Even the Arrakoa get some heavy shots in.
There… aren’t? The only Draenei towns left at all are in Shadowmoon, every other one has been completely wiped out, hence the need for Garrisons. The forces thrown at FFR were in the one single scenario, every other time it was the Ogres and the Thunderlords, who had an axe (spear?) to grind specifically against Durotan. There’s a specific quest in Shadowmoon where your garrison forces go up against those attacking Karabor and it’s a huge number, easily the equivalent of those attacking FFR, in addition to an attack by the sea from the IH.
Are you claiming it doesn’t count as genocide because the Draenei managed to not die enough?
Honestly I find your stance here to be really weird, and frankly unnerving so I’m going to remove myself from the conversation. I don’t really like splitting hairs when it comes to the motivations of mass murder, even if it’s fiction.
Not this time, no.
The Orc warlocks were the fuel for the portal in WoD.
There is a difference to some view retcons to changing the creation of your universe and a mess of retcons, a lot of them, even chaining new lore left and right. It’s so jarring and there is really no defense for it.
Ah yes, that one at the Ruby Dragonshrine for the Deathlord’s Vilebrood Vanquisher. That was a horrible “achievement”, I avoid killing dragons as much as possible (no way was I going to continue dunking on them) and the quest made me feel like a jerk even then. iirc the “kill all the red dragons” achieve was in the beta, but it didn’t make it to live, and Bolvar himself gives you the choice of whether or not to kill them. Apart from how DKs aren’t required to kill all red dragons, it’s an optiopn, I definitely agree with you.
I also completely agree with the red dragonflight being mad at the DK player character because of that. There’s a quest I like in Battle for Azeroth; Life Preserver (glad links are working for me now).
In that quest, you encounter a red dragon, Zallestrasza, whose treatment of you changes if you’re a DK who did that class mount quest. If you did the slaughter, she’s mad and will stun and knock you off a mountain if you try to attack her (speaking as a DK player, I think those DKs who tried to kill all the red dragons deserve that and more).
Right … that may be true. But outside of Talaar (which was the single bastion of Draenei presence in Iron Horde central of Nagrand), and the coastal territories surrounding Shattrath Harbor (which again, we were given reasons WHY the Iron Horde was trying to target that area in the very quests we partake in, and it wasn’t to “wipe out the Draenei”) … the other Draenei settlements in WoD aren’t/weren’t wiped out by the Iron Horde.
Aruuna, and the surrounding settlements were wiped out by the High Arrakoa through the use of their solar weapons. You move south of that to the Tomb of Lights, Auchindoun, and Teemor areas, its the Demons who are wading through those locals. Get away from the coast area of Shattrath, into the higher parts of the city … again its Fel Horde and Demons causing havoc. The conflict in Erodar in SM occurs from a sect of Fel Worshipping Draenei under Exarch Othaar (who flees to Shattrath and operates with the Fel Forces attacking the city). With the city that was once Socrethar’s rise also being wiped out/consumed by his Demonic followers. Or did people really forget that one of the major antagonists for the Draenei side of the story was in fact a Legion cult led by a traitorous Exarch. Who, alone, killed and imprisoned two other Exarchs of the remaining four?
Slightly offtop, but wouldn’t the events of the BfA mag’har scenario sort of be a “confirmation” of draenei being on the way of orcs going to Azeroth?
That is an odd item. Because I can get it and take with me to the main timeline. Yet the quest line starts with (Vision of Time):
Ji Firepaw:
You wish to hear how the Mag’har orcs joined the Horde? It may be one of the strangest ways we gained an ally!
… This tale begins with a visit to Oculeth in Zuldazar…
And ends with (The Uncorrupted):
Return to Ji Firepaw in Orgrimmar to hear the end of this tale.
Well (Bonds Forged Through Battle)
Assist Geya’rah in putting down the ogre uprising.
…
We subdued the ogre clans long ago. But every so often, one of their bravest–and stupidest–stirs the embers of rebellion.
So, could it be considered, that this be a reason why some ogres made a choice to join the “lightbound”?
