Does anyone think Yrel and the Lightbound Draenei might still be sore with the Orcs over the Iron Horde? Not all its members were executed, including its former leader AU Grom.
Yrel herself used to be one of their slaves and her sister Samaara was killed by them (AU Ner’zhul trying to weaponize a naaru for AU Grom, to be precise, there’s plenty of other Draenei who’ve lost things to the Iron Horde?
We don’t see what the Iron Horde members did to atone - “fighting the demons” is pretty much cleaning up their own mess, and AU Grom wasn’t imprisoned, executed or banned from leadership.
Wouldn’t that make for a better story if those grievances played a role rather than the current “the Draenei forgave the Mag’har then one day became fanatics” story?
(this isn’t justifying Yrel’s holy war, this is saying I think the story would work better if AU Draenei grievances with the Iron Horde were acknowledged and played a role in the story. It’d fit the current “morally grey” trend and not be some shoe-horned “Mag’har good, Lightbound bad” arc).
Well Yrel and her Fanatics make the accusation that the Orcs (by extension likely the Iron Horde) did something that damaged the world in a manner that means Alt Draenor is just… dying. So, under the Guidence of the Naaru they are converting the whole world to the Light ‘for its own good’
However, the Mag’har also reject they did anything, so it is a he said she said situation right now.
It’s heavily implied, if not confirmed, that decades (30 years, I vaguely remember for some reason?) have passed between the scenario and WoD. We don’t know what happened in between, so you can’t say there was some kind of instant forgiveness. A lot happens over the course of many years.
Furthermore, with like 30 years having passed, a good chunk of the Mag’har weren’t even alive during WoD. Punishing the son for the sins of the father is wrong, always, forever, no exceptions, no matter what the previous generation did before.
The reason the AU Draenor is dying is the result of it being cut off from the ‘main timeline’ when the Dark Portal was swapped back to Outland. Neither the draenei nor the orcs actually did anything to damage it, it’s a temporal aberration that can’t sustain itself without a connection to the timestream. Both sides just blame each other for it.
That said, in terms of the situation when we arrive there during the Mag’har recruitment scenario, it’s very… suspect. We only ever see and hear the side of the Iron Horde, who still have the same leadership as before. They also retain all their old tech, and certainly have far greater numbers than the draenei. And yet when we arrive there, they’re losing. The whole of the scenario feels very out of place, especially when Eitrigg says the Horde needs the Mag’har to help ‘save Azeroth from tyrants’.
It also doesn’t help that the new leader of the Mag’har immediately implies a desire to wipe out our draenei, and another one talks about collecting draenei tendrils as trophies.
Honestly I hate the Lightbound as a concept and that entire scenario more than almost every other weird lore muckup the writers have done. Yes, I even hate it more than the Burning.
That is correct, when you go to Alt Draenor in the Recruitment instead of a portal that bends back through time several decades, it links to the same spot in time. From our perspective it is the same as time traveling about 30 or so years.
We don’t really know what’s been going on all that time. It seems like at first everyone got along but then it slowly went all wrong.
There are two points against this. We know the world and time line are dying either way, because it’s not the main time line.
We also know the light destroyed another world before and it seems the light is in this case hurting Draenor. The last part is from the Maghar scenario. The first part, the light destroying a planet, is from a different place. I think it was the Illidan novel.
Yrels light fanatics even killed Durotan that’s why our Mag’har hate them.
They have legitimate grievances, of course.
I think they will be used as enemies at some point.
I would say the stuff about Draenor dying is more related to the breakers and Primals dying etc But the light certainly plays a role in it.
I definetly wouldnt say it is on the Orcs though. The light is basically meant to “Crystallize” stuff so much that ultimately it becomes like a statue or a crystalized thing. Very still etc etc and frozen in place.
I mean, if we take the irl parallels, yeah, things like that do burn steadily and through generations.
If we take blizz logic with “pretend that all is fine, but then backtrack when convenient” then it can be anything at all.
The story of alt-Dreanor could’ve been many things. Of getting over, or not getting, consequences of horrible crimes. Of both sides being in a trap of “destiny”. Of how failing to admit one’s past mistakes can cause new tragedies. Of the orcs, because of manipulation or supidity, ruining the balance of the world they sought to protect; and draenei taking a good idea to save the life, got a way to literally do just that (good idea - bad consequences), but trapping all unable to die or move on. Of lies and deception. Of heroism and frienship. Of misinterpretation, or bias.
It could be many things. But I suspect that we’ll only get “lul, it is our story to tell, so to tell our story we need to undermine what you knew and liked to justify the replacement”.
I kind of seen this approach somewhere. Like, half a dozen times. It totally worked with all of them, right? (Sylvanas, horde, twisting alliance from “alliance” to “high king and co.”, Elune myth, Chronicles, “orc were bad because just because they were deceived; it’s all draenei fault!”)
You are more spot on that you might realize. It is fitting for the current morally grey of the blizz flavour.
Which does not have much to do with being moral or grey, I would argue.
I refuse to take anything that comes out of blizzards mouth or fingers as canon anymore. given their huge backtracking of things and retcons
They retcon as usually as a normal person flushes the toilet.
Its sad that we have reached a point where you can barely know if a thing is canon or not (and if so for how long? A month at best)
A year later after a thing is canon its noncanon.
You dont watch Lord of the rings and then suddenly… Boromir is back because the part where he died was made noncanon.
Its the same with the whole “Pov canon” thing.
Its hugely annoying partially because its cowardly. And partially because when you have bought Chronicles etc and then years later they just say “Akshuallly that is just the pov of the titans” when at the time it was basically advertised as “Here is how everything works”
Then again player perception for blizzard has admittedly never been lower than it currently is.
A convenient way to step over a failure of the coherent story telling, isn’t it?
I think people who advocated for the time skip might not realize what horror would that allow to unleash upon the story.
Mag’har units actually do say that they “bested primals”. So, unless the balance of breakers and primals is a lie, it might contribute as well.
Way more than it seems originally, I would say:
bronze dragons being again just fine with interfering with timelines, doing what was prohibited to them (other than personal biases, are there any reasons to consider them better than infinites?)
despite being “kind of neutral”, they assisted one of sides in a faction conflict. Which should be a topic of the story, but might be just shrugged off, because why bother with consequences.
the horde asked to pay the debt by aiding in the conflict. Neither the alliance of Khadgar called for the help against the legion or later. They story IMO should consider their responsibility fow how the story unfolded on the alt-Draenor, but likely the devs won’t admit the consequences that maybe could’ve been avoided, of inaction of those who could act.
other than that, it also does not help that when this quest is turned in, Ji says that what happened was an odd story he heard from Eitrigg.
Boromir: I am my scars!!11one
It could be a good tool. But as any tool it could be misused or not be fitting for the task. Example of where it was used actually rather well (a couple decades ago):
Well, given how strong the support for Shadowlands originally was, they do not have anybody to blame outside of the company, for the feedback they get.
Nah. The way it currently is goes to show just how “corrupting” the light is. Yrel sees Grom as her friend and is “helping him” by forcefully lightforging them. Any sane person knows that’s wrong.
Take that away and give them a different reason for doing it, you lose the whole message blizz was trying to tell you. The light has the potential for evil.
If I remember right, This is like the 7th thread you’ve made about this exact topic, or something extremely similar to it… Is there anything that can be said that hasn’t been heard yet? What are you trying to achieve here? The light bound arent justified in their actions no matter how you look at it. That’s not gonna change by making the same thread over and over and talking about it ad nauseam.
I agree with your take on Blizzard changing their lore. It’s jarring to me that we can’t ave definite and both very old and rather recent lore (Chronicles) are both getting retconned left and right.
The part I quoted however doesn’t have to be a problem. It’s the way this is getting delivered. Warhammer does in my view often a decent, to good job with this. Different factions observing something and telling about it, in their very clear biased way. Those parts are also very clearly made out to be biased. It can be cool world building. To see how some factions see certain things. It’s sill better and important to have the facts of those things made clear somewhere else though.
The Iron Horde was defeated by Draenei and other Mag’har over 30 years ago and the generation of orcs now is pretty much too young to have even joined.
Also, why are you making a new thread about this when we’ve been discussing this for weeks in the other? This is just clutter.
There is no evidence to suggest she forgot the Iron Horde, or their acts.
Its just that the Iron Horde is not one of the advertised motives for her crusade in her “Sermon of the High Exarch”. Neither is the death of Draenor for that matter. And while I would wager that the Legacy of the Iron Horde plays strongly on many of willing converts minds as well, her crusade doesn’t JUST single them out as targets of their crusade. But ALL indigenous cultures on Draenor. With ambitions to spread that Light and Unity beyond that doomed world. The AU Mag’har are merely the unified Orcish people of Draenor 30 years after the events of WoD. Comprised of ex-members of the Iron Horde (like Grom); those that resisted the Iron Horde (like Durotan & Draka); and an entirely new generation of kids (like Geya’rah). Yrel is not differentiating between them in her cultural purge. Which is where the problems start coming in.
As for Yrel herself. Here is an easy explanation to her behavior. She was given one of the worst superpowers to inherit without training … without training. The reason “The Prophet Velen” is so respected wasn’t just because he had them, but because he had the experience and wisdom to know how to interpret and validate his visions. Yrel is more like Billy Batson without the Wisdom of Solomon part of his powers. Given the keys to the car, forced to drive it, but given no guidance on how to drive. Outside of purely the expectaton of the Alliance playerbase that she automatically have it. Which leaves her absurdly open to both misinterpreting her visions, as well as just being outright exploited through them. Especially if the manipulator is an authority figure she’d be predisposed to trust in, like a Prime Naaru (or perhaps even a Light being above that).
Which is kind of interesting since the motivation for the horde to ask mag’har for help was “to repay the debt”.
Since Yrel gave a similar promice, while the horde decided to go to alt-Draenor, neither the alliance nor Khadgar did.
So, would that mean, that part of the blame on what was going on, was on them? If they would ask for the help against the Legion, she would be next to Velen, and would get some guidance. And she could work alongside horde races. (not that it would help given the BfA events, but if we leave this part aside for some time)
If Khadgar / alliance leadership would request the promised help, the entire downfall could’ve been prevented. So, will the story acknowledge that or not, I wonder.
(well, who am I kidding, of cource the story won’t have any degree of blame towards Khadgar or Anduin for them not acting when they could)
