You said they “were targeting the Draenai for their Blood”. I posted back a mirror quest that says the same for their Orc prisoners. Which again, just suggests that they were bleeding their Prisoners of War for their rituals. It does not support your argument that the Iron Horde (despite all the other horrible crap they did) were committed to an attempted Genocide of the Draenei. That quest does not support your argument.
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It absolutely does support my argument. What are you even trying to do? Make a correlation between the two? I don’t know if you’re intentionally being this dense, but nothing about them also killing Orcs means that they weren’t targeting the Draenei specifically for eradication.
You have two mirror quests with the exact same content, in a scenario that portrays their treatment of their prisoners (regardless of race) as the exact same. And even their use of slaves vanishes after the destruction of the Dark Portal. And nowhere in this game does it portray an intent, or attempt, to eradicate the Draenei as a people. Nor does it give a motive to do so, EVEN in the short story that gives AU Grom his motives. In fact, attacking the Draenei is the one thing he’s skeptical about with Garrosh. He doesn’t see the need until his AU Son insists that they WILL get in the way of the attack on Azeroth if left alone.
So … you have nothing beyond conjecture that is weirdly not really supported by the story we were given in WoD. The Iron Horde is guilty of a LOT of things, but there is nothing concrete to suggest they were committed to an attempted Genocide of the Draenei. Anymore than the Orc rebels, which was MILITARY in nature. That is the one crime they weirdly do not canonically share (with what story was given for them) with their MU counterparts.
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You’re wrong. Imagine that. Further referencing a target being put on the Draenei, the joke being that Grom has the integrity to even hold back on this urge. You keep trying to draw a similarity between the Draenei/Orc slaves, while intentionally overlooking the fact they chose to sacrifice, enslave, and particularly attack the Draenei. Orcs being systematically killed alongside the Draenei isn’t paying off the debt of the Draenei being targeted.
At this point you are just deliberately ignoring the fact that in every case of Draenei sacrifices there is an equivalent Orc set. Because, guess what Vuldezi? Both factions got a mirror set of quests in the scenario that are IDENTICAL … that focus on either the Draenei or the Orcish prisoners. Every single thing in that scenario for the Alliance and Draenei has an equivalent for the Horde and Orcs. And you would know that if you played the Horde side of those events too … which with how much utter contempt you seem to have for the Horde … I doubt.
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So when someone is killing you for race, Droite. It stops being genocide when they equivalently kill the same number of their own people, who aren’t going along with their atrocities? This is the statement you’re trying to say? That death by race is reduced by sacrifice? What a maddened, sad assumption.
For someone accusing others of conjecture, you’re also trying to sidestep arguments, and actually being disingenuous with this hair-brained argument.
You cannot prove it was attempted genocide, only the enslavement and sacrifice of prisoners of war from both sides of the isle. You have neither the intent, motive, nor the actual content in the game to back up your claim; which is why you’re defaulting to morality plays here. And again, I have repeatedly said that the Iron Horde and AU Grom have an ENORMOUS of amount of crimes and red in their ledger they have to atone for … but with the content we were given … you can’t say they ever committed to a genocidal campaign against the Draenei.
You’re the one sidestepping the argument. You’re the one deflecting at this point. I spent way too much time on BOTH factions on that god damned waist of a world to have not noticed that weird little technicality. With a Loremaster of Draenor on BOTH an Alliance toon and Horde toon (and every single rep maxed out on this Hordie). I also have the vast majority of world exploration and questing achievements; the majority of the dungeon raid achievements; and even a sizable dent in the Garrison ones. You’re the one with nothing but an assumption, and a conflation between the Iron Horde and the MU Fel Horde. All you have is conjecture, not actual in game evidence to support “genocide”. Just military actions and horrific treatment of PoWs.
EDIT: The Iron Horde has a LOT of things to be hated for. Attempted Genocide of the Draenei, weirdly is not one of them based on the information we are actually presented in game and the external reading material.
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I can start repeating myself like you. The Iron Horde specifically targets the Draenei. They attack each settlement, basically no matter how small. Grom was incensed about the race specifically as a problem he needed to fix. Orcs being killed beside them, doesn’t erase the fact they were targeted no matter how you try to posture, and stomp about how much you love Orcs the Expansion.
No they do not. Because once you realize that the AU Shadowmoon’s actions are prompted by their being consumed by the Void (which AU Ner’zhul admits), the Iron Horde really only attacks Talaador and the Shattrath Harbor region (following the coast). Everywhere else in Talador though is attacked by different forces. With the Eastern Region being attacked by the High Arrakoa (and they’re just burning everything to the ground), and the Southern Regions being harassed by Ogres and Demons. Same with Auchendoun and parts of Shadowmoon. Hell, even upper Shattrath itself is being sieged by Fel Orcs and Demons. And EVERYWHERE else in this game there are slaves, its High Arrakoa camps or Ogre compounds (with both Orc and Draenei prisoners).
EDIT: And guess what, in all those regions that the Iron Horde are attacking the Draenei, they are also attacking the Orc resistance groups. Except Talador, but they only really attack Orcs in Gorgrond.
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All of that doesn’t matter. Your deflection of the Orcs as prisoners as well is ridiculous. The Iron Horde is vetting their ranks by killing the dissenters, something that has happened in every war ever practically. The Iron Horde specifically targets the Draenei to be eradicated/dealt with/some away with, because of their race, something that doesn’t happen in practically every war ever.
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It doesn’t matter to YOU, because YOU only care about Alliance races. You have no actual content to support your argument here, which is why you’re defaulting to morality plays and “expectations” of the outcome. On this one point, with the content we have, weirdly the Iron Horde cannot be labelled with an attempted Genocide; despite all their other tons of horrific crimes. Their actions against the Draenei were purely militaristic based on the info provided, not genocidal. Just like they were against the other opposing Orc clans.
They treated both groups exactly the same.
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Saying that the Iron Horde sacrifices other Orcs in equal measure with the Draenei is a bit of a false dichotomy. The Orcs in question come from a single clan, the Frostwolves, and on the Hordeside their lands are secured within the first zone for the Horde quest chain (with one of the best cutscenes in WoW history, I might add). The Frostwolves purely live in one zone, all other zones afterwards are them on the offensive with the Horde PC.
You could include the Shadowmoon, but they’re actively using that power, while there is pressure from Grommash at large, the majority barring the exiles are shown gleefully wielding that power, not being consumed by it. They’re the ones actively being slavemasters in the intro as well.
This is contrasted by the Draenei essentially being attacked by the Iron Horde systematically at every turn. Shattrath is taken entirely by the Iron Horde, it only becomes infested with other forces after we clear it out somewhat via the Talador chain. There’s an explicit contrast, that’s leaned into even more when the bulk of the Iron Horde becomes the Fel Iron Horde and… attacks more Draenei temples alongside the Legion.
Any actions against the Frostwolves outside of the two starting zones were because the Frostwolves left to join the PC to fight. This is in contrast to the systematic attacks on various Draenei settlements long beyond them being anything akin to a threat. We see this in Talador, Nagrand, Shadowmoon, and later on Tanaan. The Frostwolves flat out have no settlements outside of Frostfire, and are entirely left alone after the end of the zone’s story when it comes to their own lands.
I consider WoD to be a lore black hole and hate how it butchered Orc lore, but we shouldn’t feed into that by making false equivalencies.
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It doesn’t matter to YOU, because YOU only care about Alliance races.
You’re literally hand waving a genocide, because Orcs are present. Literally, trying your hardest, to discredit the Draenei being targeted, because Orcs. That’s all you have. They were not genocidal against the other Orc clans, they tried to bring them into the fold, and when that obviously wasn’t going to happen, only THEN did they start to get a treatment like the Draenei were given, just because of their race.
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I’m not waving away something you have yet to prove. You have yet to show evidence that suggest an attempted Genocide against the Draenei. And only can point to crimes committed against Draenei PoWs … of which identical ones were committed against the Orcs. This suggests clear WAR CRIMES, not necessarily attempted Genocide. As the definition of Genocide is: “the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.” Hell, if anything, that army sent at the Frostwolves in FFR was closer to that than the Iron Horde’s barely actions in Shadowmoon.
Proving this KEY final part is what you’re missing. You may have convinced itself it exists, but there is nothing in the game lore OR external reading material that shows that intent. Or the motive for that intent.
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You have yet to show evidence that suggest an attempted Genocide against the Draenei.
Grom targetted the Draenei specifically. Get over yourself. He wasn’t trying to coddle them, or subjugate them. They were being killed en masse.
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Wait, are you saying you played through all of WoD and don’t consider what was being done to be an attempted genocide?
Did you miss the Prophet’s vision where the Iron Horde uses the Dark Star to wipe out every living thing in Karabor? The many Draenei civilians being dragged through portals in chains in Shadowmoon to be ritualistically sacrificed? All of Shattrath? Telaar being wiped out? WoD was essentially a litany of Draenei architecture… on fire, and the Iron Horde quite literally went after them because Grommash ‘saw them as a threat’ in the false vision, so they all went after the Draenei purely because he said so.
Contrast that with the Frostwolves, who were gone after because they refused to join. There’s a notable difference there, the Frostwolves were given a chance to become part of the Iron Horde, so were the Ogres, the Draenei were given no such chance.
Even the only concerted efforts by the IH to go after the Frostwolves were largely done by the Thunderlords (led by Durotan’s spiteful brother who was likely already planning to do so) and then a singular army that was repelled and promptly went ‘understandable, have a nice day’. I’m not entirely sure how much more genocidal one can be, the whole reason I hate WoD is because the Orcs are shown to be constantly hounding and destroying the Draenei at every turn purely because Grommash said so.
The Frostwolves=You rejected our offer, so now we’re going to deal with you.
The Draenei=No chance to talk, die now.
There’s little to no wiggle room here. The motives behind each action differ.
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Of course Droite couldn’t reconcile with her extreme bias to reasonably understand the story. Orcs were sacrificed beside the Draenei, invalidating their race. It’s probably science according to race, by Droites standards.
Saying the word Orcs doesn’t invalidate the fact that the Draenei were targeted by, and large throughout the expansion.
Poised put it pretty elegantly, and if you’re so hinged on believing I don’t like the Horde or some kind of gatekeeping Droite, I feel like you shouldn’t be allowed to exercise this attack on someone like Poised, I think they care more then you.
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I’m not interested in being part of a slapfight, to be honest. I hate WoD and the Lightbound as concepts more than pretty much any other lore thing. I just don’t like what the Orcs did being downgraded or made falsely equivalent to something else because I feel it feeds into allowing the writers to continuously up the ante with their grimdark obsessions.
When one side gets “Join or die” and the other gets “Just die” and one is specifically given the chance to join because they’re of a given race, then it fits the term of genocide. It is a dumpsterfire of a move, and took a shotgun to already crippled Orc themes that had been built up as nuanced and complex from WC3 to Wrath, but that’s pretty clearly what it was based on everything seen.
I levelled far, far too many alts in WoD out of boredom, on both sides. It’s seared into my often smooth brain.
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So your primary ammunition is the Shadowmoon, which even AU Ner’zhul admitted in their desperation to find AU Grom a new weapon had completely been consumed by the Void. With AU Rulkan reinforcing that was exactly what was happening with the parts of her clan that followed her once husband. And by the point we got to AU Draenor, that group was not operating within the Iron Horde. In fact, ironically, the very weapon that drove them mad was the one they had hoped to present to AU Grom to ensure they got into the Iron Horde due to his threats if they did not. Hell, his threat to the SM had more genocidal overtones by far than ANYTHING he did to the Draenei. Same goes with the march of the Iron Horde on the Frostwolves in FFR. You’d have a better argument that he intended to eradicate several Orc Clans than the Draenei; and more evidence too.
Beyond that, the questchain in Talador with Shattrath Harbor is very clear. The reason the Iron Horde wants to secure that territory is because its one of the key locations for supply chains in all of Draenor. Especially between their HEAVY holdings in Nagrand, and those in Tanaan Jungle. As ruthless and brutal as that was, it was portrayed (even on our side) as a military action. Frankly, Telaar is like the only exception to this. And everywhere else in Talador is other forces wailing on the Draenei (most demons).
I’m honestly surprised at you here, because I’ve always considered you objective, but I flat out cannot agree with your assessment of the Iron Horde versus the Draenei. Going through Draenor shows tons of acts of needless brutality and cruelty towards the Draenei solely because they are Draenei. I will stress again that all the other major races of Draenor, including the Orcs’ most hated adversaries, the Ogres, were extended a hand to be part of the war machine.
The Draenei were not, and it was because they were Draenei. The only plan was to wipe them out.
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