I mean, the PvE training dummy with 0 armor and no BG passive DR’s like the 30% physical and 40% magical reductions… So, if MS hits for a 2.5k crit with no reductions, how much can it possibly hit for in an actual BG? Testing ashkandi, non-crit MS on hunters is 400, this is laughable, but it was only about 350 damage to MS anything wearing leather or higher armor types with untamed blade.
And starfire is complained about because you can absolutely still get smacked for 3-4k in a BG with one, despite the 40% magic DR. Which can potentially stun you.
Warrior has been absolute dogwater in PvP for pretty much all of SOD up until Phase 5 when the WL gear became available. Obviously we aren’t S Tier like Hunters and Boomies but I do feel significantly stronger than I was before in all previous phases to point where I actually do get enjoyment out of PvPing now.
And yes unfortunately you have to have either Bonereaver’s Edge or Spinal Reaper, everything else sucks.
Ain’t happening. Only one more week of this trash pvp and then I’m done anyway. Was thinking about doing bloodmoon for the gear but it’s basically dead on wild growth, most groups I’ve seen active was 5 and 3 of them were horde, I’ve gotten 2 coins for 2 full events. Doesn’t help that it only further highlights how broken shaman/hunter are.
In the time it takes for me to kill a priest (one of 2 classes I do actual damage to, the other being mage) the shaman/hunters will wipe out my entire party, just pointless.
Arms should do about what Ret does as DPS. Ret can cleanse, freedom, bubble, stun, buff, heal, etc. Is a hybrid. Does a lot of magic damage. Arms shouldn’t need a flat overall 70% dps boost to catch ret on WCLs. That is the same disparity that ret had to a world buffed BiS fury warrior in vanilla classic.
The high stam and BG modifiers means that you arent being 1 or 2 shot by ranged instant cast spells anymore, but you still do way less damage than anyone else. With a premade and support though you can at least PLAY the game. Apply a mortal strike to a target. You just don’t do much damage.
Based off a target dummy that says a warrior can never MS for 2.5k in pvp. Yet druids that on average crit for 10k on the dummy only seem to crit for 3k in pvp…
you are aware that youre arguing against in-game math and Warcraft logs right… like this isn’t complicated. You can make a PTR character and go test damage on a 0 armor target yourself. Its what I did. Your arguing with fake made up anecdotes versus hard math.
Ok so if an ability that crits for 10k on the dummy crits for 3k in pvp. then an ability that crits for 2.5k should crit for like 500-600. And MS def crits way harder than that. So uhh… Ay Tone, Ima no math professa but da numbas don add up.
And the best part is you are arguing about PVP that you don’t even partake in because some numbers on a dummy… And you are saying to me that It is impossible for me to ever have seen a MS crit higher than 600 in pvp… When I have seen it multiple times… smh
i think people have the tendency to exaggerate on the forums to a very large degree.
a well played well geared warrior is a scary thing in both organized and pug level pvp.
the numbers dont add up anymore with the poster youre referring to in both the warrior numbers and even the moonkin numbers (especially with the dreamstate not working in pvp anymore) and even then the numbers will be different cause 1 is a cast time (though it is mitigated by big range) and the other is a melee range instant cast that also puts a massive healing debuff on you.
the numbers on different classes are different . who knew?
youre assuming the 3k starfire you see is someone with the same gear as the boomkin relative to the warrior
the dummy with 0 armor is the same game, so to try and say the numbers dont count is reh-tad-ed
htt____ps://i.imgur.____com/EsQjG41.jpeg
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htt____ps://i.imgur.____com/H9zI7s2.jpeg
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wont let me post even disabled links but here is screenshot proof youre lying. Remove the two instances of 4x underscored to see imgur link or just copy and paste the end after the last / to see PTR screenshots.
Why does that matter if the average starfires in PVP are 2500-3k? Doesn’t change the fact that warriors are critting for over 600 in PVP with ms.
You are linking damage from a training dummy when you don’t even PVP. Who cares what some one hits a target dummy for… it is irrelevant. A screen shot of a damage number on a dummy proves I am lying? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of.
Its 100% relevant because its the same game. The dummy has 0 armor. Mortal strike is doing 2.5k with world buffs and consumes. I literally linked a screenshot where you can see it. You can see my buffs and my gear. So when you claim to get mortal striked for 3k youre obviously lying. I also post screenshot of the boomkin blowing that same dummy up.
Its relevant because you can reduce 2.5k by armor and mitigation + battleground modifiers and see how hard it hits. You can do the same for starfire. Just because fresh 60 boomkins in junk gear dont hit you hard it doesnt mean they cant. Its literally the same game with the same data. You can easily use a calculator (something the devs lack) to find how hard it would hit a player. It’s all right there in front of your face, proving youre a dishonest person trolling and making up stories online to fit your own personal bias rather than reality.
That right there is the raw base damage on a 0 armor target in BWL phase 5 gear as a warrior and a boomkin.
The other verifying factor is on WCL you can see arms down below the tanks and healers and see that they just do indeed do no damage.
The third factor is sims. You can see that a Spriest and Fury sim within 2% with world buffs and then remove raid/world buffs and the priest now does 300% the fury warrior’s damage, which is way better than arms. These are the same sims the devs use and reference. Sooooo, youre out bud. 3 strikes. The gap is just way too huge. Arms would need a flat 70% overall increase to catch a Ret paladin. It’s time the devs add support for Arms and make it playable in SoD. If we got 2h hunters raptor striking for 7.8k, mortal strike shouldnt being doing 2.5k in the same gear/buff situation.
Sooo your wrong bud. You don’t even play the game. you attack a dummy and never pvp and claim that all the people who actually pvp are just wrong because a dummy said so…
You pretend that arms war should be able to run around spamming 4k+ abilities to be on par with other classes that have to cast spells and that it would be balanced… you are actually nuts.
Mean while there are actually videos of warriors in pvp gear getting 1500+ ms crits vs targets with armor in pvp gear. And that the idea of a warrior in full pve gear could possibly have the ability to ever crit 2500 in pvp is just an impossibility to you…
Build-A-BUM workshop strikes again.
I posted screenshots proving youre wrong, sims prove youre wrong, WCL proves youre wrong. Youre just wrong. Hunter doesnt have to cast anything, still strikes for 2-4x what a warrior does while also doing 50% more constant DPS in melee range. Arms is a massive outlier far below all other specs and classes. Devs acknowledge they know this (Zirene on discord) and then followed up that they dont support the spec and won’t be making the changes needed to make it playable because it would be a lot of work (clown emoji).
And that the idea of a warrior in full pve gear could possibly have the ability to ever crit 2500 in pvp is just an impossibility to you
your made up story versus cold hard screenshot facts? Ill take the screenshot. Only way youre getting a 1500 ms on anything is out in the open world (where starfire, raptor strike, etc all do more damage) and you have low armor. You don’t understand basic math and that things will scale. You’ll compare a poorly geared boomkin in a battleground to a geared warrior vs a fresh 60 out of a BG and call it a day, because youre malicious.
you too dont understand basic math and got dunked on hard the last time you popped up in a discussion on here, even trying to get a high horse while talking about a priest’s rotation while misstating a priest’s rotation lol.
starsurge doesnt have to be cast, and it does more damage than mortal strike even on a 0 armor target, so over double damage on a 50% armor target, is free, is ranged, and has the same cooldown as MS. Raptor strike is an instant melee attack and does over 3x the damage of mortal strike. Raptor strike and wyvern strike also deal 2-3x the dmg of a mortal strike. A hunter in melee range is also spamming attacks each GCD and will do over 50% more constant dps in the same scenario.
A boomkin with only starfall passively doing dmg will do almost as much DPS as an entire Arm’s rotation single target. A boomkin casting only starsurge, starfire, and moonfire (all instants) will do a lot more dps than an Arms warrior. You dont have to cast anything. You just have the option of doing a 1.0 sec cast starfire for 10k base damage (before modifiers for BGs etc) if you happen to be out of melee at the moment, or starsurge stuns the warrior. Or, consider that with server latency the cast will only appear on the other screen at best .8 seconds (because it truncates the start of the cast and it should complete on time, which is how it appears when I compare two game clients casting in the same room) when a warrior has a 1.5 sec GCD, meaning it’s highly possible that they can just face tank your cast and you can’t pummel because in Vanilla, kicks are not off of GCD. Also starfire and wrath are diff schools of magic… reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Was your screen shot taken during PVP? nah dood ya lost. Melee hunter is dead on the ground in pvp because it’s useless.
Your screen shot is unrelated and also boaring. 0factsDOTnet
This right here shows you know nothing about PVP… You don’t DO more damage in open world pvp… People have less HP… But nah please continue to never PVP and tell me how it is. BUM
This is the most boaring argument I have ever seen. You actually think every ability in the game should do the same damage… Has there ever been a more boaring person than you?
You mean you can’t kick because you’re too much of a BUM to hold a global for a kick? OH WAIT… that’s right were in your fantasy world every class does there full PVE dps rotation at all times…so yeah I guess they never do have a global for kick… how tragic.
I’m not sure if it’s intentional or lack of comperhansion skills, but you seem to have failed the point over and over again.
It doesn’t get any more clear, the other person tried to explain to you in detail…
First of all, the target dummy reference is so we can have pure numbers to compare. It’s not about “how fun afk hitting a stationary mob is” and it’s not a way to replicate PvP scenarios. It is however a very reliable way to compare damage values on 1:1 ratio.
Second, while it’s true that warrior is not just MS dmg, they objectively have less utility than any other class. That means that no matter what angle you take, warrior is in disadvantage.
There’s couple of ways to improve the overall experience and viability…just few of my ideas:
Take Pummel and shouts off global cd and make it full silence on successful interrupt (eles and druids have insane dmg output on very short casts, heals are also very strong and casters are not punished enough for casting in melee; orcs have stun resist so sometimes charge/intercept doesn’t stop them)
Make the Warbringer rune actually cleanse slows bcs this way you end up charging with 2mph and stop where the target used to be 4 seconds ago
Victory Rush should proc on crits but instead of 30% heal, reduced to 10% and the cd can be tweaked if needed. It will make 1v1 encounters way better and not screw you up if someone else on your team gets the kill in teamfights. Move it over to same slot as Glad stance
Change Devastate rune to also work with 2h in which case it makes Slam and MS/BT to ignore % armor or some iteration of that
Buff MS to either get way higher plus dmg or also have good additional AP scaling on top
That rune that gives attack speed on 2h should also give 1-2% less chance to be dodged, blocked or parried on any attack because it’s tiring how much players abuse the def stat that’s in abundance in SoD and we got atrocities like shield shamans
For God’s sake make rend and deep wounds at least somewhat of a competition to DoTs of other classes. Rend should be baseline 200 per tick not total, its waste of rage otherwise. Blood Frenzy is so underwhelming as well. Either make it something like MS debuff having chance to immediately pop rend’s remaining duration on next tick and reset it or just combine it with Taste for blood as it is
the point that you missed is that hitting target dummies by default makes the caster look better because there is more counterplay towards a caster casting at you than a melee autoswinging at you, this is why casts do so much damage because all melee are on rollerskates with their mobility and the only way to cast anything at someone who is paying attention is for it to be 1 second long, casting a 2.5 second spell when u are the target of a warrior who isn’t a complete idiot will lose you the fight
pure numbers are entirely meaningless, comparing mortal strike and starfire and asking for them to deal the same damage is the same game knowledge as 2004 battlegrounds “kill the healer” messages
First off if you are gonna question my comprehension skills at least spell it correctly…
Secondly this point is irrelevant because I am questioning the translation of the damage done to the dummy into pvp. This BUM is saying that I HAVE NEVER SEEN A MS CRIT for 2.5. And his basis is for this is a target dummy on a ptr when this guy clearly doesn’t even PVP. Me pointing out how unfun and boaring attacking a dumb dummy is is merely to point out how dumb and boaring he is.
If a starfire is critting for 10k and getting reduced to 3kish in pvp that is basically a 70% damage decrease… The PVP damage reduction for spells is 40%. Now without world buffs yeah it’s gonna go down a bit more… But a whole 30% more? IDK. So if MS also gets reduced to the same degree as starfire… then a 2.5k MS crit on an armorless target in PVP it should only be able to crit for around 600-700. Now if you factor in armor and 0 world buffs you are looking at like 300 CRITS. THAT DOESNT HAPPEN… IS MY ENTIRE POINT.
Does MS always crit for 2.5k? No it doesn’t. CAN IT CRIT that high? YES it can, I have seen it. And yeah the dude prolly had buffs and the target may of had debuffs to further increase the damage, IDK. But this BUM who clearly never PVPs maybe never PVPd ever in his life. is gonna sit here and say NOPE IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE I TESTED IT ON SOME DUMMY ON THE PTR… When he doesn’t even know how the damage done to the dummy matches up with the damage in PVP. So it is a pointless thing to use as a metric for deciding PVP damage.
NOT TO MENTION. He said that the warrior was in FULL BIS BWL GEAR with WORLD BUFFS… Hitting 2.5k MS crits on the ARMORLESS dummy. So please EXPLAIN to ME how a warrior in PVP crits MS for 800-1500 ON AVERAGE in mostly PVP GEAR vs other players IN PVP gear as well…NOT FULL BIS PVE GEAR…WITH NO WORLD BUFFS. Because according to mister DUMMY LOVER. A PVP geared warrior should be critting MS for like 300 damage. OR LESS…
Some of these ideas are just absurd. You want to be balanced vs every class in 1v1s in classic… A default silence? Victory rush just proccing off crits? Warriors crit all the time. And you want MS to crit for what 3k+ at all times. Why should your bleeds compete with caster dots? Caster dots that get countered by dispell and are the main aspect of damage for dot classes.
Pummel off gcd would be fine but you don’t need a silence. Armor pen sure why not makes sense. And as for victory rush make it proc from taste for blood but increase the icd from 6 sec to 15 sec.
2hander spec doesnt need buffing.
What’s more needed for all warrior specs is more healing from the feet rune 30% HOT + 30% max hp increase for the duration of the HOT. And I agree with making the pummel more versatile. If a 2hander warrior can survive longer, it can do much more lasting the fight
What needs damage buffing is the dual wielder, dual wield haste rune buff for additional main weapon damage increase and bloodthirst damage increase, increased heal per hit in percentage, -50% heal debuff on the target
Since most of warrior damage now comes from instant swing abilities like slam, overpower, weapon swing rune,
it’s complementing the 2hander much more