I may be wrong about cycle not being picked in pvp. If something like this is a viable pvp build. https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/demon-hunter/havoc/DAOEEERUVQqFVUJUUCRQOVEQmUSgFQEQmRQBQDgyMkhWi5gyMc
However, this change still screws pve builds that want to take demonic but dont take cycle.
On the issue of Demonic vs. Demonic Origins I think itâs really going to boil down to one of these talents being more competitive than the other. The increased CD on eyebeam is going to make Demonic Origins a stronger incentive because it will reset that cooldown. If weâre talking about cycle of hatred bringing eyebeam to a 30 second CD then thatâs two eyebeams you get off between each Meta cast, with Meta granting a bonus third.
This whole debate is moot at the end of the day one of those talents is going to prove greater value than the other. Right now it seems like itâs going to be origins.
And as for Momentum, youâre going to be playing it whether you like it or not. Even if you skip the talent itself (which would be foolish, it empowers literally every other ability within our toolkit and the recent ânerfâ indicates the devs have no intention of changing this functionality) youâll be taking all the Momentum-lite talents such as Initiative, UBC and Tactical Retreat, not just for how strong they are in and of themselves, but because theyâre going to give you easier access to KYE and Chaos Theory which are some of the strongest talents in the whole tree.
At the end of the day, the right hand side is a novelty cleave branch and the left hand is the min/max s/t branch - that just so happens to revolve around momentum. Not enough of you are able to identify and critique this so itâs going to make it into live.
Better luck next time!
This is why I want momentum deleted. There is no middleground. You either play this horrid playstyle, or do ~10% less damage than you should be doing. It cant exist without being forced, or being completly dead if it gets nerfed to the point where it isnât worth the talent point, and at that point, they may as well just delete it anyway.
The irony is, with the talent trees the way they are now, they could delete Momentum outright and youâd still have to play it. Youâd still hit VR on CD and youâd still hit FR for every UBC. Its roots in these trees are too deep. Youâll be playing the ghost of Momentum whether you like it or not. Better to have the 10% damage buff to go with it!
Clicking felrush once every 30 seconds is not the same as constantly weaving in fel rushes to keep up a maintenance buff.
But you are happy to hit FR for the extra damage, even tho itâs movement. You are happy to weave VR for initiative. This is why they tailor the trees to momentum. They donât see a problem because you donât see a problem.
Not yet anyway.
So on a patchwerk sim and the small handful of situations which occur in game like it a hard-left Momentum build will theoretically perform higher DPS.
I have no problem with one of the hopefully many builds performing very well in one situation.
But I do believe that in reality Momentum will suffer from âdead players do zero DPS.â
Especially in highly deterministic M+ group creation.
Be prepared for, âAre you Momentum?â replying âYes!â and quickly seeing a message, âYou have been declined.â
I donât think so, FR into FB is very simple. Especially now that the buff no longer stacks thereâs no incentive to chain VR into FB into FR into FR or w/e dumb combo maximizes the buff window. Having Chaos Theory as a guaranteed buff now will also make it very obvious what you want to cast after a FR. Itâs going to be a much simpler spec. Once theyâve forced enough people to play it the complaining will probably die down, just like you donât really see complaining about UBC, everyoneâs just naturally mastered spending the buff.
That, and, I donât know if youâve seen the state of the Survival hunters in pugs this season. So many dummies playing melee for the first time. Itâs feast or famine with those people. But the chance of a good Surv is always worth the risk of bringing one. If that winds up being us? Hell Iâd be happy with that. That would put the players themselves in demand, not just the class.
itâs quite a big jump from playing ranged to playing melee.
itâs not the same as playing momentum vs not playing momentum.
end of the day, you may want to play the spec or talent the guides say its the highest dps, but not have the skill do take advantage of it, and be better off playing something you are comfy with.
most players do not push 30s. the ones that do have no problem with various playstyles imposed by certain talents required for max dps. they adapt easily.
and the community perception is what it is and will remain the same. even in 15s, lads invite the meta. it will always be like this. at least survival hunter allowed holy priests to shine. no hunter/mage/dps shammy meta, no healer besides resto shammy.
if we are being realistic, in DF there will be 2 dps slots to contend for, the 3rd is gonna be an evoker, at least for the first patch. as will all new classes introduced in wow, they will storm out of the gate completely busted, best believe and accept that.
As Iâve already said, I would rather not have to use fel rush for damage ever, but ubc is so minor compared to momentum that it doesnât really matter. And anyway, ubc is bis on live without taking momentum, so momentum doesnât have to exist for ubc to be a thing.
They have acknowledged the problem though. They just havenât done anything about it yet.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-demon-hunters/1315896/48
They admit that momentum shouldnât have a strong emphasis on how we play, they just so far havenât done anything to actually make this a reality.
They fixed glidementum (thank god) but then theyâve made momentum accessible in such a way that youâd always be able to take it. Like itâs our equivalent of Savage Roar for feral. This has been the situation now for long enough that itâs safer to assume theyâre just happy to keep it like that. Theyâve nerfed it as a token gesture to people complaining but otherwise Iâd parse this as them saying you get what you get.
I wouldnât be so certain of this if they hadnât tied Initiative to VR and hadnât sandwiched the CD talent for it with UBC in between. That seems like a very deliberate coercion for players who are thinking of putting a toe into the column to go all the way and actually try the playstyle. Momentum would just be the logical endpoint. That to me tells me they actually do want to force momentum, youâre not describing hyperbole, but the ongoing state of development.
What Iâm saying is, you canât expect this to be removed, nerfed at best, but youâre going to swallow your pride and take enough talents into the column. You should be making an argument that the right branch needs a better defined route to AMN because going haste/mastery no-momo is the best alternative you have. Right now it looks like it has pretty poor synergy. Idek why youâre talking about talents on the class tree as tho they impact the talents on the spec tree. It just seems to me like the whole discourse has broken down, nobody has any better ideas. Best youâll get is some alternate consensus after a patch cycle but until then, this is what we have.
So you take that putting it and all related talents to the side and allowing paths to the capstone that entirely bypass those Momo talents as them forcing it upon players?
If you spend those five talent points for Fel Rush, VR, and Momentum youâre not putting those points into something like Growing Inferno, Burning Wounds, and Ragefire.
And then because you took those movement related talents in Havoc, you also donât have Aura in the class tree, further boosting damage done by GI/BW/RF.
So itâs not like youâre getting Momentum for free, youâre spending points that could get other abilities.
And then also, youâll have less sturdiness from the class tree as youâd not put a point in to Sigil of Fire (extra healing from CWB), and then Charred Warblades is quite a bit weaker too as your Immolation Aura is so much smaller.
And hereâs the crux of the issue:
how much do you think Growing Inferno, Burning Wounds and Ragefire will be balanced around how much damage they can do in multi-target encounters? Ragefire for instance it would make sense that it will pool higher damage the more targets are hit by IA. Burning Wounds and Growing Inferno likewise would presumably be balanced around what an AMN build at its peak would be doing in terms of single-target. Which brings me onto point 2
If theyâve not tempered down the single-target potential of AMN ragefire then what would you take instead of momentum down the middle of the tree? In that instance you would almost certainlty take Initiative, UBC and Tactical Retreat because the crit buff is going to feed into Ragefire. What else in the tree will synergize across multiple talent combos like that? And thatâs before you even take momentum!
Exactly, and thatâs the problem. Itâs antithetical to what they claimed in their post.
They claimed to remove it as a capstone to make it optional and not mandatory, but they have yet to make any noticible changes towards accomplishing that.
No thanks. I want to continue playing the same playstyle Iâve played since BfA. Momentum was never a forced part of that and it doesnât have to be, now, or ever.
If anything, momentum needs to move to the right, as far away from the single target build as possible.
i doubt they will go live like this.
ragefire is busted, even as a concept, with immo being uncapped, amn, and a crit mastery build you would see impossibly high numbers on ragefire, even after all bugs are fixed.
frankly i would be happier if burning wound was an ST talent, even though that does not fix the issue. have it cap at 1 target and be applied by chaos strike, be done with it and move on.
you can even have ragefire only damage the target affected by burning wound, which would mean you still see a monster number with it, but at least itâs not aoe. I mean come on, with 22% crit and 25% mastery on the ptr, on 3 target cleave, I see ragefires hit for 30k. surely that is insane.
otherwise, they will just nerf the percentage on ragefire, which will probably make it a nice bonus on AOE, totally worthless on ST or priority damage.
Initiative and Ragefire is just First Strike and Winds of Winter from season 2. Itâs a s/t funnel that in DF is going to double up as the old Soul Cap from WoD. Like a borrowed power we get to keep. Iâm all for it tbh, it fleshes out the immo aura spam of SL. Iâm sure tuning will happen at some point somewhere.
Iâm looking forward to it tbh!
The thing is they should ot be turning moving abilities into DPS gains which make it a must to use with momentum. You donât see the devs adding DPS boost after a warrior use their charge or mage using teleport or durid or rouge wijr dash.
Why do it to DH. Also there are suitation where is impossible to use momentum build die how the dungeons o the boss fight works.
Given the equal position with Momentum a 10% all the time damage boost, ragefire should be very powerful.
The only talents which should be more powerful than Momentum and Ragefire are the capstone talents which come after them.
Balanced well, no one should pass up picking two of the capstones, while Momentum/Ragefire can be dropped from the left/right choice for specific fights or player enjoyment.
I think we should hopefully see variations that include:
EssB/SD with Momentum and Fel Rush talents.
EssB/SD with Ragefire and Immolation Aura talents.
SD/AMN with Throw Glaive and Immolation Aura talents
SD/AMN with Momentum and Fel Rush talents.
SD/AMN with Ragefire, Immolation Aura, and Throw Glaive talents.
EssB/AMN maybe even possible
And then within that there will be additional choices, Glaive Tempest or Fel Barrage, Fodder/DecreeâŚ
ragefire should be powerful, and iâm with you on the fact that it is reasonable to assume it competes with momentum, but bro, thereâs a dude on the beta forums who tested ragefire in dungeons and itâs 50% of him damage. and itâs passive. sure it requires some thought, activate immo aura when you have uptime on the targets, but still, itâs way to easy for that sort of damage.
as it currently stands, with immo uncapped and burning wound at 3 targets, i donât see how they can really balance it. if they cap immo, revolts ensue. if they cap ragefire, there will be complaints that it pops on the wrong targets.
no, i still say it should only damage the target(s) affected by burning wound, and that burning would should really be capped at 1, buffed, and applied by chaos strikeâŚ
The thing thatâs making me laugh the most about ragefire-momentum is that you would want to spam the buff - and do your best not to overlap! - through the entire IA window so every tick has the 10% extra damage. Youâd want initiative at the start and then VR into initiative for the last 5 seconds. That will be how you min/max this.
Momentum cannot remain a flat damage buff going forward because itâs going to result in too many degenerate playstyles like this. They need to stop relying on old stuff thatâs already coded into the game and rework it to make it do something new that doesnât have all of this degenerate synergy. And this should go without saying: nerfing the damage buff window does not change the fact that it is a damage buff window. This is where all the problems are coming from with this talent! Not the movement abilities, but the hard percentage of all damage being increased.