Feedback: Demon Hunters

While this may be a fair point it is one of those things that still raises concern. The idea of always being in demonic might seem cool, but will it mean our damage suffers for a thematic choice? Will it end up preventing people from being taken to groups because our damage is subpar?

It’s just something to consider, and why we even bring the feedback.

Holy defensive nerfs this feels kind of crazy bad:

On live with conduit 22% magic DR Demonic Wards getting nerfed to 5% and then having a 2 point node with Illidari Knowledge only giving 4%? Over a 50% nerf to our passive magic reduction (and even a bigger nerf if Illidari Knowledge isn’t additive to Demonic Wards).

Fantastic change for havoc getting major buffs to our mastery through talents but this means we won’t stack vers anymore so where on live I have 10% DR through vers that’s gonna go away as well.

Not having Blur baseline and the talent having the 20% DR component taken away is horrible. 50% dodge might be ok in pvp against a melee comp or in open world questing but in any form of organized content (pvp against casters, m+/raid where you have a tank taking all the melee hits) Blur is a dead button without that 20% DR attached to it.

With quite literally all of our defensives being stripped away how is havoc expected to live through any sort of high end content? On live in pvp we’re already paper without necrolord abilities and in pve we’re on the tanky end but no where near warlocks or mages or rogues. If these changes go live Havoc will be unplayable since we’ll just be dead.

As for offensive stuff thank you thank you thank you for Soulrend. Momentum/bloodlet was my favorite iteration of Havoc and I’m happy that this is back and with Fel Bombardment this looks very interesting for m+. I can’t wait for them to actually start working in alpha to try them out.

Bring back Chaos Blades. Legion Havoc was the most bursty spec in the game and ever since then we’ve been neutered over and over again til on live we just upkeep a dot and be sad (thank you for removing sinful brand). Meta is a strong CD for what it does but it’s the least impactful CD in the game with the longest duration and doesn’t really feel like a CD because it’s duration is so spread out it has to be watered down. Every time a raid leader calls for holding CDs for a specific burst window (think breaking the shield on Kael in CN) we have nothing to contribute aside from our normal sustained damage. In m+ we don’t have any big burst CD to help take out any sort of particularly nasty pack.

Fae Empowered Elixir in it’s current form looks bad. It makes you want to save the ability til the end of a pack in m+ to hopefully get CDR but use it in time to get enough dot damage for it to still do the damage it should. It’s an impossible to use talent. Instead of that could it be swapped out for something like a juiced up Grove Invigoration that makes it so you chose between using the hunt with extra strong dot damage or you get a huge stack of mastery which makes our main damage do more. In pvp and raid it’s a completely dead talent.

Demonic vs demonic origins makes demonic origins a dead talent.

Is Inner Demon supposed to work off Demonic as well as standard meta? It currently only works when used with the main Meta CD.

Unbound chaos feels really expensive for what it does. It in itself is a 2 point node but then you also have to take Improved Fel Rush making it a 3 point node where if you didn’t go down that path you’d be able to put points in much more meaningful nodes.

Everyone loves pushing Blade Dance. It’s a neat ability and looks awesome but works against Cycle of Hatred (which is a strong but much despised talent because it makes you not push Blade Dance). Is there any way that Blade Dance can be tied into CoH? It works with Shattered Destiny which is awesome. The current set up of talents makes it so you have to take some form of BD upgrades but then if you take CoH any time you push BD (especially with First Blood not giving fury reduction) detrimental to the strength of CoH (which leads to the degenerate “one button class” play style where all you do is press chaos strike over and over and over and over again to get back into meta).

Aside from the horrific defensive nerfs to the class over all the trees and abilities are amazing fantastic job!

4 Likes

For what it’s worth, the 20% DR missing from the talent is not intended. Blur will have that returned to it. It was relayed as much to Max when he was initially looking at talents.

1 Like

I totally agree, our magic resist from Illidari Knowledge should be bumped up to 4% for the first point and 8% for the 2nd point.

Another option is to add the “Fel Flame Fortification” legendary effect(You take 15% reduced magic damage while Immolation Aura is active.) to “Infernal Armor.”

So Infernal Armor would be “Immolation Aura increases your armor by 20% and while Immolation Aura is active you take 15% reduced magic damage and causes melee attackers to suffer 20 fire damage” for the 2nd rank.

I totally agree with bringing back “Chaos Blades,” we are really hurting for a short 2 min burst cd. Meta being attached to Demonic makes it so it has to be toned down. My suggestion is remake “Fodder to the Flame” and combine it with Legions Chaos Blades.


Chaotic Sacrifice
Rank 1/1

Instant 2 min cooldown
Consume a stored shattered soul of a Demon , instantly exploding, dealing (192.5% of Attack power) damage to nearby enemies and healing you for 25% of your maximum health. While active, your auto attacks deal 150% increased damage, and causes Chaos damage.

Consuming a stored soul inflicts 1% maximum health in damage and can be used while under the effects of all crowd control.

“Shattered Souls” effect: Soul fragment that is consumed heals you for 20% of maximum health and you will deal 20% increased damage for 15 secs.


Another thing I agree with, making “Cycle of Hatred” interact with Blade Dance would be an easy fix. Don’t hate me for saying this, but adding Sinful Brand back into the tree wouldn’t be a bad thing, if Blade Dance interacted with CoH.

3 Likes

We should phrase that concern as tuning not in a way to reduce demonic uptime; tuning should always be DHs’ concern with how Shadowlands turned out. (I see tuning/numbers as a separate thing)

That said, with proper balancing, I wouldn’t turn down more demonic uptime.

Also, looking cool = more dps

2 Likes

TLDR - Glide will be removed as one of Momentum’s trigger skills in a future update.

Thank you to those willing to discuss Glide’s inclusion as a potential trigger for Momentum. While we knew it could be a controversial addition, player discussion around the topic has helped paint a clearer picture of the ways in which it could be fun and also the ways in which it could cause problems or frustration. Most reactions to Glide on Momentum were negative, and ultimately we agree that the downsides would probably outweigh the benefits and Glide will be removed as a potential trigger skill.

Momentum has historically been very divisive, with many players strongly loving or hating it. A talent tree is an ideal system for such an ability to exist, as an option. With that in mind, a capstone position puts a greater emphasis on Momentum than it should have, and so Momentum will be swapping positions with Essence Break. Essence Break will be modified in a way to further emphasize its intended identity as a medium cooldown controlled burst option.

Your continued feedback on Demon Hunters in the Alpha test is greatly appreciated and helps guide future iteration. Cheers.

35 Likes

Extremely exciting change about the positioning, and so fast, too! Thank you and all of the developers working on Demon Hunter for listening and responding to our feedback so quickly.

8 Likes

It feels like the only real reason I go down the right side of the tree (for a ST build) is to get to Demon Blades/Instatiable Hunger which takes away from being able to put a point into Netherwalk(survivability)/Tacitcal Retreat(Fury generation). In my build I had to choose between Netherwalk vs Burning Wounds and the damage you gain from Burning Wounds is pretty decent not to take (maybe this is something they want us to have to choose between damage or survivability). Demon Blades/Instatiable Hunger should probably be swapped with Serrated Glaive, which would let us take out 2 points from Felfire Heart and would allow us to put one point in Netherwalk, one point in Demon Blades and one point into Tactical Retreat.

Feels super awkward being forced to use points down a path to get to 1 ability you NEED, so you lose a bit of choice.

Ya, I was specifically going to make a post asking for Fel Barrage/Glaive Tempest to be moved elsewhere.

We agree to the extent that a 2nd charge of Fel Rush (and for Vengeance, Infernal Strike) should be more easily accessible than in its current position on the Havoc spec tree, and so the talent Hot Feet will be moving to the class tree in the first row center position where the talent ‘Master of the Glaive’ is now.

Master of the Glaive’s effect will be combined back into the talent ‘Debilitating Cuts’ and renamed back to ‘Master of the Glaive,’ matching the Shadowlands talent version.

28 Likes

Okay this is too many wins in a single day… What moves to Hot Feet’s former spot?

4 Likes

As others have said: It would be great if Glaive Tempest/Fel Barrage wasn’t locked behind UBC. You could move it elsewhere and do a branch that combines UBC, Momentum, and Improved Fel Rush perhaps. That way that whole playstyle is connected (you’d want them all anyways) and you could build out other branches that make more sense as well.

I’d also like to voice overall displeasure at having to talent into basic utility abilities like interrupts, basic defensives/dispels/etc that weren’t talents before, and other abilities of that nature. It feels really bad having to spend a talent point on something like that instead of spending it on increased damage or an ability that affects your playstyle in a more meaningful manner.

I’m totally fine with talents that enhance those basic abilities (IE: bonus fury on successful Disrupt interrupt or removing a buff with Consume Magic) or spending a point on sigils as Havoc. But spending talent points to get a previously baseline ability back doesn’t really instill me with a sense of “meaningful choice”.

2 Likes

A new talent modifying Throw Glaive will be taking its place, the details of which will be available in a future build.

While on the topic of talent placement and what talents go where, we’ve been following discussions and planning changes. Instead of responding to every current related comment, you can refer to the below image to see what Havoc’s tree is likely to look in the next update:

We really do appreciate your continued play, discussion, and feedback, and we hope you will continue to share it with us as we move forward. Cheers.

45 Likes

Sir, you can’t keep giving us all these Ws, we literally cannot hold them all.

19 Likes

On the class tree, I don’t like Desperate Instincts (DI) as a talent and as a capstone. It’s not strong enough to be a capstone or even a talent, even though, I’m concerned we’ll be squishier in DF. Also, I like having control over blur.

Not exactly sure what would be capstone worthy, but to throw out an idea, how about an improved Fleshcraft? Can move while channeling, shield absorbs X dmg then reflects the absorb dmg when broken…

or blade dance dodge :slight_smile:

2 Likes

The location of Relentless Onslaught and Trail of Ruin seem to be in really awkward spots after these changes. Before it was moved to that location, they synergized really well with Improved Chaos Strike, Critical Chaos and First Blood. With this new image, we’re moving some ST talents to a side that don’t compliment the type of build you’re aiming for such as ST vs Cleave/AOE.

The left side seemed like it was more focused on ST talents and the right side of the tree was more focused on Cleave/AOE. I think putting momentum towards the middle of the tree since both sides would benefit from this and moving Unbound Chaos closer to the right side of the tree would make this feel better. I think Relentless Onslaught and Trail of Ruin would feel better where Vengeful Restraint and Unbound Chaos are in your current image.

It almost feels like a tug of war and you’re forced to spread points into talents you don’t really have interest in just to unlock an ability that feels core to the spec instead of spending points into making your spec feel smooth. Maybe no matter how we move things around, we’ll end up with having to put points into skills that don’t compliment the build we’re aiming for but this feels a bit too spread imo.

I think it’s going to take more testing and shifting of talents around the skill tree to really iron out what will be a good final skill tree for Havoc. Thanks for looking at our feedback <3

3 Likes

Just some immediate feedback based on the image, because there is some concern about it;

If possible, would the CS trait immediately down from Eye Beam and First Blood be something that can be swapped? There are already concerns about the potential of the existence of a CS-only build. That said, that also depends on Cycle’s power.

Until the new tree is live, this is about as much as I can immediately give.

7 Likes

I agree with Atrayen, I think with this image, we’d be looking at a CS only build and wouldn’t really press Blade Dance outside of a few exceptions and that would feel really mind numbing. BUT I will say that we’re moving in the right direction and need to keep adjusting as we continue to test new alpha/beta builds. :smiley:

3 Likes

Being forced into burning wound to get to fel barrage is so bad.

Burning wounds playstyle of multi dotting as melee do not fit the modern m+ role of a melee.

Burning wound is fine as a way to make immolation aura dmg matter on single target.

But please get rid of burning wound from the right side of the tree.

If you insist on keeping it then make blade dance apply it.

Multi dotting in keys while stoping mobs abilities and keeping track of focus frames for kicks and all other mechanics and frontals as melee …. Is not fun.

Multi dotting and tab targeting for dmg as melee is not fun.

I would take UBC back over burning wound to get to fel barrage. please put ubc back there. Anything but burning wound in its current form

15 Likes

Alternative recommendation - given the lead-in from Trail and the path down to Soulrend - make your periodic DoT crits (Hunt, Trail, Soulrend) proc it, leaning into the crit scaling we have.

Additional feedback: the forced pathing into Chaotic Transformation does not feel good (talent may need a rework? Feeling compelled to wait for Eye Beam to be back up before popping Meta does not feel the best, and the talent doesn’t do a whole lot given it is tied to a 4 minute cooldown)

Dancing with Fate being behind the Throw Glaive talent if we end up not wanting it does not feel good (potential node swap?)

Being forced into either Isolated Prey or Momentum for Know Your Enemy does not feel good (swap IP with Chaos Theory maybe?)

2 Likes