DF Devs are Trying to Kill Demonic and Force Momentum

Recent changes on beta have nerfed eyebeam cd to 40 seconds which is a noticble hit to demonic uptime, while demonic origins is getting buffed. Meanwhile, momentum barley gets tocuhed, still remaining a mandatory talent.

After being initially excited about the talent trees, and the devs seeming (more like pretending) to be listining to feedback by acknowledging how hated momentum is, every change since has been bad.

Why are you (the devs) trying to kill the most popular playstyle (demonic) and force the most hated playstyle (momentum)?

Edit: This also effectively nerfs fel eruption to 40 sec cd in pvp as well.


Demonic should be removed from the game. It holds back balancing of both vengeance and havoc and essentially forces meta to be tuned low because of the high uptime it provide.


I don’t think so, what he wants to do is make the core lane “work” with as few talent changes as possible. The problem that they solve with a higher CD in EB and the neft in SD is that Restless Demon and Inner Demon “work”, as it was before, the output of demonic was so high that it would quickly end up making us be in demon form for too long, rendering the other talents useless.

I did not consider them to be good solutions even so.

40 second Eye Beam without CoH, with CoH what is the math?

  • At 0 haste resulting in a 1.5 second GCD used only for BD/CS/GT: 24 seconds (16 attacks taking 24 seconds)
  • At X haste resulting in a 1.25 second GCD used only for BD/CS/GT: 22.5 seconds (18 attacks taking 22.5 seconds)
  • At Y haste resulting in a 1.0 second GCD used only for BD/CS/GT: 20 seconds (20 attacks taking 20 seconds)
  • At 100% haste resulting in a 0.75 second GCD used only for BD/CS/GT: 17.25 seconds (23 attacks taking 17.25 seconds)

Now if Eye Beam was still 30 seconds then that last value would see an Eye Beam every 13.5 seconds.

This change is pretty on par with keeping Cycle of Hatred about equal to its current value where we receive an Eye Beam approximately every 20 seconds with a 1 second GCD. Except it’s a ton better because Blade Dance and Glaive Tempest both trigger.

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They intend on Demonic origins being a burst option, and Demonic being a more frequent mid-burst option.

All this depends on how well it is implemented and tuned, but the idea of demonic windows being less frequent but more impactful makes a lot more sense to me. Now they are trying to change the frequency, but I’m skeptical as to how they’ll make it more impactful. Maybe they could try and buff or modify Restless hunter or inner demon.

However, now Eye beams CD lines up with Essence break without the need for Cycle of hatred.

There is still the problem of the anti synergy between Restless Hunter and Inner Demon vs Shattered Destiny, and the opposition between playstyle aiming to enter and leave demon form as a often as possible, and the playstyle that aims to elongate demon form as much as possible.

The problem to me is the center lane of the havoc tree tries to accomodate both demonic and demonic origins at the same time, despite the fact that they need different things.


Pretty sure they are trying to give us some options instead of forcing us into demonic to spam 2 buttons. Demonic really has been king for almost 6 years because they couldnt balance momentum builds. I wouldn’t be shocked if momo builds sim and perform better than demonic, but what would you expect? More complexity and skill should have bigger benefits. For the avg casual player I doubt it will make a diff. In fact, they will probably be better off with demonic.


Pointless to me. Cycle has never been taken in pvp and with the way the talent tree looks right now, it doesnt look like we will be able to afford to take it in df either.

I think if you don’t want to play momentum you have to make a more coherent argument against what’s happening in the current talent trees. As it is, Demonic and Momentum are both sustaining each other, all the talents that best compliment a cycle of hatred build are in the momentum column.

This is how I’d play it:

Now, I’ve made this same point in the other thread, but Momentum isn’t a talent anymore, it’s a whole column of talents that weaponize movement abilities - or as I like to call it, “Bastard Momentum.” Your argument has to be that for a diversity of play styles that can appeal to all DHs and not just the momentum players, there needs to be a viable alternative. There aren’t any. Here’s the best you can do for a s/t non-momentum build:

  1. Half baked Immo Aura that can’t reach into Burning Rush w/o dropping s/t support

  2. AMN Shattered Destiny hybrid that’s missing all the s/t traits that momo gets you to

Also: even if AMN pulls ahead for s/t target damage, that will also prioritize Momentum or the Bastard Momentum talents. You will be taking initiative for the crit buff that VR will provide or your Ragefire procs are going to be underpowered. Framing it as a contest between two competing Shadowlands builds is an obsolete thinking and the devs will safely ignore it.

Uhh, I never said they were competing with eachother in DF. Nothing is competing with momentum which is part of the problem. I was just acknowledging the trends of the devs nerfing demonic (while buffing demonic origins, the talent competing with it), which has been the preferred playstyle over the last 2 xpacs, despite it simming lower than momentum; and the devs seeming like momentum becoming mandatory is perfectly fine, despite people not wanting to play it over the last 4 years, even though it sims the best.

Demonic being more popular than momentum on live despite momentum simming better paints a very clear picture of what the majority enjoy and dont enjoy. The decisions being made on beta seem to be encouraging the opposite of what the playerbase enjoys, while trying to make what is enjoyed less viable, and Im going to continue calling the devs out about this until they get their heads out of their asses.

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I agree with the math that 30s CD for Eye Beam with CoH is kinda busted, but the change to Eye Beam has nerfed its function in every other build that isnt CoH based. That as a whole hurts the class in my opinion, so instead of nerfing Eye beams CD, nerf the CDR from CoH. That allows Eye Beam in every other build to function as it has for 3 Expansions with the CoH talent utilizing Demonic/Eye Beam (if demonic is chosen over the new Demonic Origins rework) for those who want to go that path. Seems a$$ backwards to modify a core ability only to make it work better with a talent that’s suppose to improve said ability in the first place.

And, if they do intend to keep it at a 40s CD, then they need to buff Furious Gaze to offset the increased period between applications, also, it will need a buff to eye beams damage as well outside of Isolated Prey (because again, this may not be taken by everyone)

This feels like a knee jerk reaction, instead of thinking it all the way through, they would have seen its funneling the build into momentum as the most viable build for output in most content. I feel some abilities have fluid interactions with other talents and I feel others are clunky or cluttered.

They could consider getting rid of Shattered Destiny, and rework CoH as the capstone making it increase meta uptime by “x” fury spent and leave Eye beam at 30 Secs flat across the board. Seems to be a more fitting approach towards demonic uptime without hindering other builds, robbing them of their Furious Gaze uptime and general use of Eye beam in a non CoH build.


I’m sensing confusion.

In all seriousness though, what can you see in the talent tree that will compete with the momentum column? If they buff demonic, then that’s effectively buffing momentum. What column going down the latter half of the tree has anything approaching the cohesion and identity of the momentum column? I personally think Trail of Ruin and Relentless Onslaught should be higher up the tree, on live that’s a talent that doesn’t compete and a conduit that couldn’t compete until it was much higher ilvl. In its place they should put all of the TG talents and buff them so they make more sense in a single target scenario once you’ve stacked enough mastery and taken AMN, then there’d at least be a sentiment to do a hybrid shattered destiny/AMN and avoid momentum completely.

What you have to seriously consider with these threads you’re making is: what if the devs know there’s a problem but don’t know how to fix it? They took Momentum off the capstone to address precisely these complaints you’re making and that’s had the knock-on effect of making it available for any build. What if they don’t have the answers? What is all this agitation worth in that scenario? They can’t just u-turn and put Momentum back on the capstone because then everyone will fully understand they don’t know what they’re doing.

So what now?

I suspect that the developer goal for a spec talent tree is the elimination off or at least marginalization of ‘hybrid’ builds. In the case of the Havoc talent tree, I take this to mean that a player always chooses the center capstone and one of the left or right capstones.

So in this case, that means that having Cycle of Hatred and Shattered Destiny are expected and intended for all Havoc that want top performance.

That’s my interpretation.

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Momentum is a stand-alone talent that is very easy to take because of where it is in the tree. If it were a choice node, it ideally wouldn’t be mandatory, as the talent it would be competing with would be relativly equal in effect.

As it is now, choosing not to take momentum means we do 10% less damage than we should be doing.

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is it just me or is ragefire busted?
on 3 targets, with 22% crit and 25% mastery and AMN, it does like 30k damage when it pops.
I can only imagine what kind of damage it does with more targets and optimized secondary stats.
50% is probably wayyy to high

Ok so that’s one idea for momentum (pending an actual choice ofc)

Now what about Initiative?

Now what about UBC?

Now what about Tactical Retreat?

What are you going to do, take KYE but leave out a talent that grants a 5sec 15% crit buff every 12 seconds? Are you going to gear haste/vers like you’re still in SL?

Momentum isn’t a talent in this tree, it’s a build. A build that will fit in anything you try to make. You have a limited amount of time to form a consensus about what a competing build would look like or, sorry bud, you’re playing it.

What about them?

Momentum is literally just a poorly designed talent that alters our playstyle in a negative way, and says: “increases all damage by x%.” It doesn’t need to exist, and certainly shouldn’t be mandatory for the standard dh build.

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Here’s what I reckon is happening at blizzard: they don’t really want to impede the incentive to take Momentum because deep down they suspect that this? This right here? What you’re saying to talents that are near mandatory and utilize your movement abilities for damage? Is how everyone complaining about Momentum actually feels.

No, I would ideally not have to take talents like ubc, but they are such a minor inconvience compared to momentum, so I don’t really care as much as I do about momentum.

Edit: Like I would love to see ubc changed from buffing fel rush, to the next chaos strike or blade dance triggering the burst.

That is my main concern as well. I the build I was looking at, I didn’t have CoH but with this change I feel like I will be forced into dropping stuff I wanted so I can get CoH just to counter this nerf.


The main enjoyment of the DH class has always been the increased damage throughput obtained via Demon Form. The current playstyle is just praying for CoH procs to reduce EB CD and maximize SB uptime (glad that talent is being yeeted out). Adding Momentum-based gameplay to increase damage is a welcome addition for me.

There is something fun and addictive about being in Demon Form as much as possible.

Any re-optimization of talents that takes away from this overall concept is a mistake and I hope that this isn’t just a shifting of CDs and talent tree lockouts to give us the same amount of Demon Form uptime we’re currently getting in live.

The power level of almost every class is going through the roof in DF. Just let us be in Demon Form 75%+ of the time and we’ll be happy. And please, put us in a position where we won’t be bottom-of-the-barrel/ mid-tier on every fight this expansion. It’s DH’s time to shine again.