aff is like…75% broken and nearly impossible to really get a feel for on alpha atm so we’re waiting on bug fixes to actually put any effort into it.
MR is okay - but it should be a spread aoe tool and maintain its 4p effect, not the entire spender profile.
What mechanical difference does this make? Say blizz decided to put in a choice node that either added an MG effect to DS or Withering bolt. They would just decide what dps value they wanted the talent to have and then adjust the strength of the extra dot tics for MG and the % buff to DS for withering bolt and the end result is identical gameplay. I imagine the reason withering bolt exists and they’ve been ignoring our pleas for MG is that withering bolt allows them the option of individually buffing or nerfing our dots without impacting our filler damage.
It is absolutely just a perception thing. The damage MG does is not dot damage, it is filler damage because you can only cast MG on one target at a time. The most significant thing it does is make your dots look like they are more powerful by boosting their percentage of your damage profile in a way that only works single target. Its a shell game, instead of a DS tic that does 100dmg, you get an MG tic that does 50dmg plus agony tic that does 25dmg and a corruption tic that does 25dmg, but its all damage that occurred because the player hit their filler button, not because the dots are stronger. That said, the fantasy of MG is more fitting and satisfying IMO and I think it makes a better filler with DS as a shard generation/execute tool.
It’s not a perception thing.
MG does buff your other DoTs, it is DoT damage. It’s had numerous iterations, one of them buffs the DoT damage while channeling, another one made the DoTs tick for 20-30% of their normal damage every time DS did damage, another had some other effect, and a 4th had both effects of 1 and 2. Like, it’s had multiple iterations, they all make your DoTs do more damage either via extra ticks or via directly buffing them.
Look, it actually buffed them. I don’t know where or how you’re not understanding 1+1.3 does, in fact, come out to be 2.3, but yeah it did buff them either directly or indirectly. If your combat data/log is saying “Corruption dealt 10 damage” and then under MG is going “Corruption dealt 12 damage” that’s quite literally buffing your DoTs and it’s not a perception thing, it’s a combat data analysis thing and a damage profile thing.
Again, though, as I said before in other posts and other things; people want MORE DoT damage, nothing else. Affliction is a Damage over Time spec, not a MR or direct damage or anything else spec. People want more damage in all of their DoTs, MG literally fits what people actually want. Yes, people, the majority of players who love and enjoy Aff that don’t go solely based on the numbers, but play based on how much fun the spec is, to those players, MG is a much better talent, is better overall for the toolkit, is a better spell.
Again, you’re looking only at the end result, nothing else. People care about that, but they care how they got there just as much.
That’s why I keep saying people that play this game literally only for the numbers, as you’re looking to be at this moment, will never understand the people playing this game with their feelings. You’re looking only at the end result and nothing in between or how you got there as that part doesn’t matter to you as much, just the end does.
The DoTs are literally stronger there. They might be stronger due to you hitting a filler, but that fits the fantasy of the spec way more than anything else they’ve literally thrown into this spec over the years except for Rapid Contagion.
Yeah, fantasy/thematics matter more than anything. It’s why specs are loved.
It’s a huge mechanical difference, because it interferes with the fantasy and flow. One of them just buffs your 1 DoT, your single drain based on the number of DoTs. The other buffs all of your DoTs by draining. They’re close only in that at least 1 DoT is being buffed by filler, the difference is that 1 of them makes multiple DoTs buffed, the other makes your filler buffed.
No, they’re probably trying to figure out how to get the spec to play better and feel better, but because they’re trying to figure out an emotional problem using just numbers, alone, they won’t figure it out. People are emotional creatures. They want what they want and like what they like.
The fantasy matters, bad. If it’s not there, people won’t enjoy it.
You seem to be projecting onto me forum arguments you’ve been having with other people. At no point have I been arguing against re-implementing MG, and in fact my argument that the difference is thematic is in favor of MG. With no mechanical difference, there’s no reason not to do the one with better flavor. MG is more flavorful and the only people that seemed to dislike it are the ones that wanted shadow bolt back, and they seem to have stopped defending it since it came back.
For the sake of argument, lets say that I’m wrong. MG is not filler damage, it is damage that is a core component of our dots. That leaves blizzard with 3 options for balancing: 1. Make dots balanced outside of MG, and then let them be overpowered while MG is up (historically 30-50%). 2. Make dots balanced assuming MG is up, and then let them be underpowered on all other targets (again, 30-50%) 3. Make the effect of MG minimal.
The people that are opposed to MG are usually afraid that blizzard would go with option 2, and if this were an accurate model I imagine they would be right. Blizz isn’t going to just let us do 30-50% more single target damage than everyone else. Fortunately, that’s not what actually happened with either the MoP or Legion versions and is just a misunderstanding of our damage profile. The MoP implementation replaced the roughly 40% of our damage that came from shadow bolt with probably around 10% direct MG damage paired with either faster or extra tics (depending on which version you’re looking at) that made up the missing 30%. The legion version was essentially the same, except they were looking to give us a single target only buff so the total damage had to be the damage provided by that talent row + the amount they wanted to buff us.
The only thing I want people to realize is that the weakness introduced by MG effects is not a weakening of multi-dotting, its target switching and bursting. With shadow bolt, you could switch to a low health priority add and just shadow bolt at it for about 40% of your usual damage if it wouldn’t be alive long enough for your dots to do much damage. With MG, you have to waste globals to put your dots up anyway or you do barely any damage, or more likely just don’t switch. Something like soul swap obviously mitigating this weakness.
Which is fine for a DoT spec, imo, as long as it feels like an actual rot style DoT spec and not what MR is. I guess this is it put into logical/numbers sense, as more people play games using their feelings, not raw logic or math/numbers. Higher end players usually play with logic/numbers in mind, but the average player doesn’t care about that half of the time, they just want the spec to feel really good being played. Part of it is numbers, but the bigger part is generally how the spec actually feels to play; be it through the mechanics of the spec, the mechanics of the fight encounters, how good the rotations feels, etc.
It’s very feelycraft, which is what a lot of higher end people tell you to avoid doing, but when it comes to thematics there is literally nothing better than feelycraft, otherwise you end up with weird and clunky rotations that don’t make sense thematically speaking and only make sense logically/numerically speaking, instead.
Like numerically, MR is better and lower DoT damage is better in terms of shorter duration fights, burst, mythic+ settings, but in terms of raiding or longer fights, in terms of spec flow and feelings, thematics, it’s far inferior to things like DoT damage.
This is one of the arguments behind “we want more DoT damage.” It’s not about the number of DoTs, it’s each individual DoT’s damage compared to the rest of your toolkit. Having 3 powerful DoTs makes you feel far more like a “DoT spec” than 9 mini DoTs plus some burst. It’s, again, feelycraft but it’s what a lot of people use to determine whether they enjoy playing the spec or not.
That’s why I usually have contention with mythic raiders, as a lot of them look only at numbers and “I have to swap to kill this add.” To be honest, no you don’t. Your group needs to kill the add, but if it’s an add that has to die in 5 seconds, literally the rest of the DPS have you covered.
That’s also why people are encouraged to not have so many DoT specs, too, is because of moments like that that are a much bigger weakness to rot styled DoT specs vs things like MR. MR doesn’t feel good to play outside of if you’re either playing “I gotta do everything right” or you’re playing for the numbers alone. Nothing wrong with playing with those in mind or for those purposes, just it’s not what a lot of players do. In terms of that, though, you have Demo and Destro specs which offer better and easier target swapping than Affliction, at least Destro does anyways.
But yeah, a lot of mythic raiders cannot grasp that the feeling of the spec isn’t there. There is no love for the spec or enjoyment in it, just numbers. Blizzard also cannot grasp this, either, as they’re probably split between what they want or how to balance it properly, even though they can do that by just making them overpowered on 2 and 3 boss target fights, giving 2 council style fights per raid, then the rest of the raid Aff can be not the optimal spec for that fight.
Like, you take a look at Affliction in Legion and MoP/WoD and compare it to BFA or to Shadowlands, and it’s nowhere near as fun to many players who play it. Even 9.0 wasn’t so fun to most casual players, too. It was fine, better than BFA, but still just nowhere near as fun as Legion, as WoD, as MoP for those who played it in those expansions. Malefic Grasp was prevalent in each of those, and it was part of what made the spec feel so good to play. Withering Bolt is not Malefic Grasp, it never will be. It serves a purpose kind of similar in that they’re both damage amps to 1 target, but it’s a completely different feeling, a completely different thing. There was an outrage a bit when Withering Bolt first appeared because it’s not Malefic Grasp.
Rot style is what a lot of people want. It also makes 10 times more sense for a rot style play than nuke for a DoT spec, too, regardless of whether or not this fits into mythic+ design, mythic raid design or any other aspect of the game realistically speaking, this is what a lot of players/individuals feel and want/desire. Yes, they do want it. No, BFA was not a Rot style, it was a burst spec. Rot is sustained damage or very very quick and often burst.
One example of this that keeps getting used is Legion. So, Legion on its face was a burst style, however! It had a mini burst into a big burst into a mini burst into big. Between all of your CDs you constantly had burst going, and with your weapon you had that Artifact ability up 90-99% of raid fight durations. This kept it from being burst into putting it more into sustained damage territory because the only time you did not have it up was the first 30 seconds of the fight when you were ramping, then you had it up the rest of the fight, even on 10 minute fights. This puts it at sustained moreso than burst because burst says you have a short duration with a longer CD. This is why a lot of us consider Legion Affliction to be sustained damage profile, even though technically it was burst. It just felt better to play, you had your burst up so much faster and for so much longer, too. It also was nice to have execute DoTs, which we miss a lot, too.
Execute DoTs made your DoTs feel very impactful, especially towards the execution part of the fights in both mythic+ and raiding.
Or maybe some of us actually like the spec, the way it feels, and are also happy that it plays better into raids and dungeons than any previous iteration of Affliction.
You’re spending shards to do something to every target that you’ve spent time putting a dot on. It’s not just numbers, that feels to me like I’m interacting with the things I’ve done before by using my class resource. Standing in place to channel a laser beam so my dots on one single target are stronger feels far less fun to me.
People liked Legion because it was broken and op. It was some of the most boring stuff to actually play. I don’t feel that standing still and channeling nonstop is very good for a spec that relies on doing damage over time, where one of the advantages should be high mobility while your damage ticks. Rapture plays into this far better because you only have to find pockets to stop and cast instead of planting your feet for 90% of a fight to feel like you’re doing anything.
By all means, change rapture to credit the dots with the damage it’s doing. Anybody who actually understand why rapture works already knows that won’t change anything, but if it helps people feel differently then nobody cares. Just do it.
But it didn’t play better than Legion, though. One of the very styles is literally directly from Legion, itself, the StS seed spam build was directly from Legion.
Even channeling a laser beam you’re still interacting, though. Also, it’s a DoT spec. Like, I feel like you’re trying to make the spec into a WW monk or something with the interacting with your resource. WW monks you don’t press the same button twice in a row, maybe Fury Warrior I guess, too, would be similar. Personally speaking, I don’t enjoy DoT specs doing this kind of thing. They’re damage over time, nothing more needs to be or should be done. It’s spinning plates on a timer. You don’t need anymore interactivity than that outside of just channeling into something rotting it away.
Again though, this feels more like you’re trying to make it burst oriented, and DoT specs shouldn’t be bursty. I don’t care about whether the content is designed around that, I’m speaking literally here from the actual “damage over time” profile of DoT specs, they should not be meant for burst profiles, nor have them integrated into it. Up front damage or burst is specialty of other damage profiles/specs, not Affliction. That’s why I keep asking for sustained damage profiles and more DoT damage/less number of DoTs but more damage from them. It’s also why I think having 3 powerful DoTs plus a DoT filler is probably perfect for the spec, unless you give it something like the Spriest Misery talent to wombo combo 2 DoTs into 1 GCD. That’s where the fun is; juggling DoTs on timers, that’s what draws a lot of people into even trying the spec; the simplicity of juggling DoTs on timers and nothing more.
That plus it actually felt like you were melting the target’s soul. Like you had Malefic Grasp, you had a full rot profile for raids in that you had your artifact ability up 90-99% of the fight duration for raids and nearly 100% uptime in mythic+ dungeons. It’s no longer burst, then, it’s sustained damage.
I’m of the opposite opinion when it comes to Malefic Grasp. Channeling into a target to make your DoTs tick harder/more often is very fun to me, it’s fulfilling for a fantasy/theme which is rotting away the soul of the target. That’s what comes to mind for a lot of players when they think or read about Affliction; draining the enemy down / melting it. I don’t mean numbers wise here, I mean with the laser beam it’s like you’re actually rotting their core being away.
Exactly! That’s why Malefic Grasp was so good! The DoTs got all the credit! DS did a very slight bit of damage, even execute. It just empowered your DoTs making them deal more damage via actually buffing their damage or it made them deal more damage via more ticks. The DoTs were the star of the show, right there. That’s why a lot of us hate WB. Withering Bolt makes Drain Soul the star, it’s a filler not the star, a side character in a support role for the main character, at best.
That’s the thing, Rapture is direct damage. It doesn’t fit with the “damage over time” component of Affliction, so again it just isn’t there. The feeling is completely counter intuitive to the profile of “damage over time specialist” because then your roles are flipped. Your side character has become the star and your stars have become the side characters now, which doesn’t make sense for a DoT spec.
It does change it. You guys keep looking at this from a results perspective. Like, again that’s a results perspective. Do you guys know why people love fantasy themes and whatnot? Games, movies, etc. We all know the hero comes out the winner, the MC will win in the end. They’re very predictable, but we love the journey the hero takes getting there. People get caught up in the journey more than in the end result. The end result for most TV shows of this nature is very, very easily predictable, yet there’s a lot of shows who always have the same happy ending kind of things. The journeys are more or even just as important to a lot of people, than the results.
An interesting philosophical question to pose to people: what matters most: how much money you make or how do you go about making said money? Is the actual number more important than the way you go about making it? I believe the answer to this is going to be 1 of 2, realistically.
you care more about the result, aka the number that you make, regardless of how you go about doing so. This is results oriented and this is where a lot of people have the issues. Results wise, whether MR is credited to DoTs, to its own damage source, whether MG acredits damage to DoTs, to itself, etc. none of that matters, only the overall damage you deal, regardless of profile. “Regardless of the journey, the hero is still the hero.”
You care more about the way in which you make said money, the end result not mattering as much to you compared to the way you get it or how you get it. This answer is the “we want rot style” kind of mentality where people want the actual profile to be sustained with very limited burst, to where the DoTs are the star of the show, or the entire show with things like Malefic Grasp to empower the DoTs up more. “The journey towards becoming a hero is just as, if not more important.”
You’re real focused on me enjoying the results when I literally just said I prefer the method that rapture gives over what grasp used to do.
You’re also laser focused on how rapture deals burst damage when it could just as easily deal lower burst damage while improving sustained damage in other ways. The removal of dark soul was already one step into moving away from high burst during cooldowns, and rapture could work in a more sustained damage profile if you had just the slightest amount of imagination.
Malefic Rupture feels so lame to use, I just want to dot my targets up and shadowbolt as filler till moar dots
Sounds like Wrath Classic might be the game for you!
I said results focused because you keep focusing on results oriented wordplay. Nonetheless, I will take a step back, then.
As for MR and doing sustained damage, I don’t like that there’s any nuke in Aff, let alone that said nuke is direct damage oriented. I don’t care that you need to have DoTs up in order to use it, that just makes it even more annoying at that point to a lot of people playing the spec. No nukes are needed in a DoT spec, much less no direct damage nukes, either. If they want a nuke, throw Rapid Contagion in and let your DoTs nuke for 20 seconds or 10 seconds, on a CD. At least that way it makes much more sense since you’re dealing DoT damage, not direct damage.
People keep missing the point of why a lot of us hate MR. It’s not a DoT, which means it doesn’t belong in a DoT spec, much less as the focus of said DoT spec, either. If it were a DoT, it’s easily more accepted since it fits the profile of Damage over Time, but it’s not. Some people don’t even like that we have Seed of Corruption in the spec, either. That, while technically speaking it’s a DoT that does 0 damage over 15 seconds and detonates to do damage then, much like how Doom is with Demo, or I think it’s Demo that has Doom.
It just doesn’t make sense, much like how Corruption doesn’t make sense to be in the Demo or Destro specs, either. Nonetheless it’s there, why? Absolutely no good reason except that they wanted it to be there.
Except that it doesn’t and it isn’t accepted because it doesn’t do DoT damage. If it did damage over 10 seconds from the first cast and every cast after that first one put a bigger DoT up, like a stacking DoT or did something to your DoTs like make them tick faster, forced them to all tick every time it did damage, gave them the ability to execute, if it did anything besides direct damage but related to DoTs then that’s one thing and people will be more acceptable of it. It’s not, though, it’s direct damage. At least with SoC it puts a DoT for 0 damage over 15 seconds that can detonate early and spreads Corruption. The reason I think most people accept it is because it spreads Corruption. MR could end up spreading Agony around to multiple targets, or spreading UA+Agony to each target. They could uncap UA from 1 to 3 or 5 targets total, with every time you use MR you spread UA to targets without UA on them. That would make it more accepted, too, I think. People want simple game play, they want easy game. That’s why they chose DoT specs, more often than not most of those are easier to play, easier to maintain, except for Affliction this expansion. Legion it was “DoT everything up, drain, push CD on CD, drain more.” Very few people complained about that being too boring for them. The only ones who complained about the actual game play, as far as I could tell, were mythic raiders who wanted more interaction, but those are very very few and far between compared to the regular players who don’t want more interaction and complexity.
Please please please tell them how much we hate MR
BFA system with unstable afliction was great, put all ur dots, fill 5 shards, apam afliction.
I like MR and I don’t have alpha access 
Watching Kalamazi trying to do a affliction ST opener for yesterday’s build and his dots fall off 1/2 way through the 16-17 buttons…
We got major issues here boys haha
My last post was a bit negative so I want to include some positivity too.
Maybe they just accidentally input the wrong spell ID for Deathbolt instead of Rapid Contagion. That’s possible right?…right?…
thats not really wonderful feedback - and personally i don’t hate MR. it serves a purpose.
but i have discussed with kalamazi and some other folks feedback being more centered around “MR is a good spread cleave tool in place of seed, but as the default spender it has weaknesses” etc. etc.
especially with 2P/4P on the tree, MR will feel good to press in council fights and anything spread to keep dots rolling and being that juggling playstyle.
Can you also discuss with them asking blizz to add in Rapid Contagion, as well? It can be in place of Creeping Death node, and it can even take the place of MR or something, I don’t actually care, as long as they keep the Haunt buffing all DoT damage node, along with having Rapid Contagion for a DoT damage centric style build, I think that would be quite an awesome profile.
I don’t like Death Bolt, but that’s more of a PTSD kinda thing from BFA. It just irks me seeing the name and spell, even if they turned it into a 3 second DoT, like, the only thing I go back to thinking is BFA and I hated BFA Affliction. To me that spell needs to be removed entirely, but again, selfish and PTSD moment here with it. If it stays then it stays, but regardless of how much damage it does I will ignore that spell entirely, even in PvP. That’s just how much I detested it in BFA.
Yeah, with 2PC it feels good, but moreso my personal feelings for it aren’t anywhere as close to the hatred levels of Deathbolt, but I just don’t like that there is a non DoT in Aff’s toolkit that does as much, if not more damage than the DoTs do. I don’t mean adding up all DoTs then comparing, I mean they need to remove it being a Shard spender and tune it into doing the same damage as Siphon Life, so that way the DoTs can be the star of the show for a DoT spec. That’s why it didn’t feel so good this expansion to many of us.
You had a DoT spec not centering it’s damage around DoTs but moreso around the number of DoTs and doing damage via Malefic Rapture, a direct damage spell tied to spending globals on DoTs. It just doesn’t balance out and doesn’t feel good. It’s like Shadow Priest being a DoT spec and centering around Void Bolts and Mind Blasts, it just doesn’t make sense.
I also would like for them to get rid of Withering Bolt and add in Malefic Grasp, instead. This buffing up your filler thing instead of making your filler buff up your DoTs is bleh. Fillers are filler for a reason, they’re not meant to be your top damage nor even close. Shadow Bolt should not be in Affliction spec, sorry to those who want casting style caster Aff back but that spell actually doesn’t fit DoT spec. It fits Warlock, but Aff spec should automatically turn SB into Drain Soul the moment you pick Affliction as your spec. It fits a lot more thematically, looks cooler, is cooler, is better for mobility, has a much better niche and it can lead into Malefic Grasp or it should lead into Malefic Grasp, at least.
Going back to MR I think they should put MR on a charge system. 3 or 5 charges, total. I’d say 3 charges on a 6 or 10 second recharge, probably 10 seconds to line it up more with PS/VT stuff. A better shard spender is either Rapid Contagion or Haunt. I don’t want UA to be a shard spender honestly, I’d rather UA go back to being a regular DoT with just having 1 UA per target again like in Warlords. It was fun having it as a regular DoT. You had Agony, Corruption and Unstable Affliction as your DoTs, with Haunt as the shard spender. That was neat and fun, pretty cool. Rapid Contagion for PvE as shard spender would be neat, too, and help with PvP since you’d have 1 less PvP option to pick from and could just pick something else, instead.
I keep harping on about Rapid Contagion because it literally fits Affliction perfectly. It fits the damage profile, it fits the playstyle, it’s fun to press in PvP cause it made your DoTs tick so much faster, 30-33% faster in PvP so you got so many more ticks from it. It lasted a good bit, which fits all burst profiles that is needed, so I mean it’s just so annoying that they haven’t figured out to incorporate it as PvE. It has a short CD, 30 or 40 seconds, so it’s up every pack or every other trash pack, so you’d be able to shard snipe then have shards to SoC into VT/get dots up then RC and yeah, less buttons.
The only downside is some people think of it is as a brain dead or boring spell. Technically speaking it is but it’s also why a lot of people love it, too, and want it in the PvE side. A lot of players who come to play or try out Affliction do not want some complex spec. The thing that draws people in more times than not is its simplicity, or it used to be its simplicity. You just DoT and drain, then renew DoTs and keep draining. That’s what a lot of players loved, the skill cap for it was in managing timers, nothing else. I get that that’s boring to higher skilled players, but it’s like how bear druids are the simplest tanks and intended for beginners, they could do other things with other DoT specs and make them more interesting or there’s other specs of the Lock. Affliction should be a very simple spec; DoT n Drain, nothing else needed or done.
Also, to the Drain Soul/Malefic Grasp/Shadow Bolt thing: regardless of whatever they decide, I hope they add these spells into Mastery for us. It’s annoying that Drain Soul is not counted as part of your Mastery for Affliction. It should full on be affected by your Mastery, yet it isn’t, which makes for Mastery builds to be almost useless if you’re using Decimating Bolt since that beefs up your DS casts, which are unaffected by Mastery. The rest of the stats synergize with everything, but Mastery doesn’t synergize at all with a Withering Bolt/Drain Soul build at all.
Malefic Rapture needs to go. It’s not fun nor does it feel good to play. I want to play my lock again
I legit forgot our mastery was even a thing it’s that boring. Maybe they could change it to increase dot duration in addition to damage etc, or at least something more interesting?
Btw if you have a chance, watch Kala’s first try running aff for yesterdays build. He goes on a mini-rant that to me perfectly reflects how aff mains have felt over the past 2 expansions