That depends obviously, but there might be some truth to that. You can generally tell how a key will go within the first 10 minutes or so. If it’s looking really bad, maybe you can still time if no other mistakes are made, but if the group has been making a lot of them already…what are the odds that they pull it together?
People rarely leave good keys, only bad ones. Simply put. If you’re consistently struggling with people leaving your keys, the problem is either your vetting process or your gameplay itself. Fix it. No one is going to sit around for a struggle bus just so you can get a piece in your vault.
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IMO keys should never downgrade.
No, they should. You already get all the rewards even if the key takes 5 hours. There should be some punishment for failure.
One minor point, some people will sit around for a struggle bus is they also just want a piece in their vault. But you have to seek those people out, not just invite the highest 4 ios you can find and then get mad when they don’t want to slog through with you.
the tank didn’t leave because of two deaths, they left because they perceived (right or wrong) that two players in the group either didn’t know the mechanics or weren’t going to pay attention. they bailed early instead of risking wasting 40+ minutes to people dying to similar stuff the entire run.
i wouldn’t personally leave that quickly – everyone does dumb stuff, and i’ve certainly died to that knockback myself – but it’s not as simple as “he left because of 2 deaths”
bingo. as a healer i generally know within the first pull or two how the run will go. occasionally you get surprised, which is why i almost never bail on keys – i’ve seen groups that were a disaster on the first pull who didn’t make a single significant mistake after that – but it’s usually accurate.
the other thing here is that bad groups/players generally don’t even see the mistakes. they think they’re doing everything perfectly as interrupts get missed, adds get put in the wrong place, purges don’t happen, etc. and one or two players get sick of covering for those mistakes. then when somebody gets frustrated and leaves they say “but everything was going smoothly!”
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That’s true for the most part, depending on how patient you are. Alliance typically has one tank sign up every 20-30 minutes.
I mean, it’s a +8. You can have multiple complete wipes and still time a +8. xD It’s a little silly to leave because two people get knocked off once.
In contrast, was doing a +9 Spires on another alt last night. First pull tank does the double, but folk drop the ball on interrupting the Goliath twice, so despite my best efforts as a 230 resto druid, we wipe. We pick ourselves up and move on. Later on, we end up with the same issue when the tank tries the double pull before the second boss (with the Goliath pack + etherwyrms). Folk say oops, and we move on. THEN, when we get to the third boss, somehow the tank had managed to aggro the group at the top of the stairs (still not sure how this happened, as all pets had been dismissed, the mob was cc’ed without pulling threat, etc), which caught us off guard and caused another wipe. Tank apologized, and we moved on.
We still timed the key with multiple minutes to spare.
oh for sure. but the tank can also leave that group and find a new one that get the same dungeon done 10 minutes faster because those mistakes aren’t happening.
i’m not a key bailer, but i do understand the mindset. “time is money, friend” and all that.
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Perhaps, but in that case take the time to teach them what they do wrong and what they can do better. I realize that most people find that annoying or think that’s not their job, but the more we help one another, its one less person making those same mistakes the next time they queue up with another group.
No one is forced or has to do keys, just like I am not forced nor do I have to fill out all 9 boxes in my Great Vault every week unless I want to do that.
I’ll be honest, stop doing baby keys and get out of the bracket ASAP. The faster you get into the 10-15 key range you’ll find the mindset of the players change and the skill and caliber of player improves substantially.
I stand by my comment above.
We actually had a similar situation in a HoA 15 the other day where someone mistakenly pulled a trash pack mid-first boss that forced a wipe, loss of two stoneborns, and all our major 3 minute cooldowns. I thought the key was dead, but we pressed onward and we timed it with just slightly over 60 seconds left.
If your group’s damage is good, a few wipes/deaths don’t always cost a key, even at the start of a season when people still don’t have tier nor double legendaries.
They absolutely should. If you don’t time a key, it means either you or your group are not ready for that dungeon on that difficulty and you need better practice. If the key didn’t downgrade, everyone could easily get a 15 key and just completion IO spam for two weeks to reach 2500. There should be some penalty for non-completion since you are at least rewarded with gear regardless of timer.
I just don’t think they care. It’s how I feel about a lot of WoW players these days. Why take time to teach them if they don’t care enough to listen. We’re in the last patch of shadowlands and people are still queuing for mythic+ necrotic wake not knowing to pick up spears or hammers and having little knowledge of boss fights. Also MMO’s have been out forever and I can’t believe they still click the spells on their bars. Which becomes painfully obvious becauseof their pitiful reaction times such as standing in AoE for a few seconds before backpedaling slowly out of it. All while having three DPS that all do less damage than the tank. It’s also these players that seem to have the worst attitudes and never say “tyfg” or “have a good one”. I’d even appreciate if they were honest and said “thanks for the carry.”
People on horde might not understand but on alliance it’s 10x harder to do high end content
I feel like this is probably the best “solution” Ive seen on GD, sure its abusable 3 times per key but that would solve a fair amount of issues for the everyday M+ players. If you have formed 3 groups which all failed then yes your key deserves to go down.
It’s not perfect but its a step in the right direction.
I was thinking the same thing, as a tank or a healer you can very easily get into another key within 5 minutes.
If people are consistently making mistakes it would actually save them time to join another group instead of spending 1 hour + consistently wiping.
Good example is Tazavesh Street of Wonders, tank/heals quit all the time because that dungeon is easily 1 hour+ with a group that has no idea what the’re doing. I’ve been pugging 15’s to try get a healing trinket and more than half the groups are over 1 hour when the timer is 39 minutes. If I cop a full cast of statis beam while we have multiple kicks up I’d kindly remind the group to kick and if I happens again I’m out.
If I get into a Taz key and we have wiped about 10 times before 15 minutes I’m out because its already a fiesta of a key and I’m not going to spend 90+ minutes when I could just join another group and get it done in 30.
People need to realise that when you sign up for a 15 key the expectations is that you know what packs to pull (tank) what are the important kicks and an optimized route. If its clear 10 minutes in that no one has any idea whats going on you can’t blame someone wanting to leave.
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Even Gambit can suck if people don’t put effort into knowing what stuff to kick, ccing murlocs, or basic reading comprehension.
Had a key owner not help with Hylbrade rune puzzle because they ‘didn’t have an addon or weak aura’ when literally the healer is typing out ‘Red FR’ ‘Yellow BL’ or people who don’t move focus the pulse adds before So’leah.
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Tanks pulling multiple packs with scalebinders and having 4 fish sticks up while the dps keep tunneling ads is a dead giveaway that no one has any idea wtf is going on.
If I was in a 10 key I’d stay until my patience runs out but on a 15 I’d be gone so quickly.
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It was an 11. It was my first attempt at a +10 since I did a 7 just to get a feel for packs and boss mechanics.
My biggest complaint is the 2nd boss when people are not ccing adds for breath. I literally had to manuever the boss around the entire arena to get the adds because people were off in timbucktoo.
Key owner ended up having the most deaths, and least amount of interrupts.
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Well I guess you could create a solo version of M+ where you go in with a computer generated team that wont quit on you and can be guaranteed to do the right thing on every occasion and then its purely up to how well you play. Shorter timer and perhaps lower level rewards.
The problem with punishment is that its a broad generalised reaction to situations which can be anything but generalised. While “just form your own groups” is the obvious response, it is a pity that a system designed to be played by random selection is suffering such frequent failures.
Probably why people love Comp Stomp because NPCs are nimwits.
I wouldn’t trust a NPC group to do anything competent - just look at Isle Expeditions as an example. You could just pull the island right on top of the NPCs and they’d just keep fighting them while you ran off to mine nodes.
And that’s the first time Blizzard has tried Smart AI NPCs.
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A vote surrender would be an amazing option, if like a vast majority of the group all vote to end a run it should just end as a mulligan and no one is penalized in either direction, nor are they rewarded.
It’s just a nullified run, that way they could simply give up a run that they’ve tried their hardest on and come to agree it is probably doomed to failure.
This would be great for the LFG tool but I don’t know how they would make it work for Premade group finder, but it is something worth thinking about. Even if it is just for M+ dungeons to nullify a keystone, the entire group agrees to nullify, so the keystone is returned just as is.
Possibly this might have to be something that happens before the time runs out, but again, there are things to consider and discuss about this and flesh out, it’s definitely a conversation worth having with devs imo if they’d be willing to hear it.