Deserter from vote kick

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

it’s preventing the problem we use to have with Occulus/any instance players didn’t like for whatever reason.

This, yes. That crap was a nightmare. So many god damn tanks just sitting down at the entrance to Stonecore refusing to do the dungeon until we kicked them, because LEAVING meant a debuff, but getting kicked meant they could queue up again immediately. Cata dungeons were MISERABLE because of that iteration of the VTK system.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

We’re talking about a system where you get stuck with 2 dead weight people then you get deserter unless you subsidize the lazies. Just because Blizzard’s system exists doesn’t mean it can’t be improved, as everyone who plays this game knows

[Rhielle-sentinels (Rhielle)]

you get stuck with 2 dead weight people then you get deserter unless you subsidize the lazies

And where exactly was anyone in this instance getting stuck with two dead weight people? No one was even afk. It was two guildies, one who apparently had to do something real quick and then came back, and one person who got impatient and those guildies didn’t take kindly to that person trying to kick their friend.

Just because Blizzard’s system exists doesn’t mean it can’t be improved

And how, exactly, do you think it could be improved? How is the system going to decide who deserves a debuff and who doesn’t? Why should it even do that? One person’s issue is not lesser than someone else’s.

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

Just because Blizzard’s system exists doesn’t mean it can’t be improved

Suggesting an improvement is one thing. Complaining fruitlessly about a current iteration is pointless. OP has not yet suggested anything to improve the system – they haven’t even acknowledged the limitations of the system.

This thread is a tantrum.

[Powercrystal-faerlina]

There is no rulebook for the kick button OP. You tried to kick someone and in my opinion they were probably not even afk for that long. So more than anything it was probably karma.

[Hellasha-alleria (Hellasha)]

It was also a problem in battlegrounds early on. People use to queue up for AV while in WSG/AB. (or take a look at who was in the battlegound and try queuing up again hoping to get the kind of team they preferred)

Just because Blizzard’s system exists doesn’t mean it can’t be improved, as everyone who plays this game knows

If you have suggestions I’m sure they’d like to know, but as of right now the current system is the lesser of two evils.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

And where exactly was anyone in this instance getting stuck with two dead weight people? No one was even afk. It was two guildies, one who apparently had to do something real quick and then came back, and one person who got impatient and those guildies didn’t take kindly to that person trying to kick their friend.

This happens plenty in island expeditions where two people sit back idly knowing they can’t be kicked. To pretend it doesn’t and only stick to this one isolated scenario when the issue is clearly the system itself is just an abandon of logic for the sake of “winning the argument”.

You never answered my question, either. Just because it’s Blizzard’s system of majority rules it is okay? I know you work in law enforcement so this may be difficult for you to grasp, but I’m not asking “is it within the parameters of what is allowed by Blizzard?” because that is silly and isn’t even worth discussing, of course it is, that’s why it is coded that way. The question is “Is Blizzard’s current ‘damned if you do damned if you dont-when stuck with a group of two idlers in an island expedition because MAJORITY RULES’-approach a proper way to handle group dynamics and just?”

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

This happens plenty in island expeditions where two people sit back idly knowing they can’t be kicked.

NGL, I’ve never experienced that in an Island. Not even once.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

That’s really immaterial.

[Nåvi-zuljin]

Look at you trying to rewrite events that you weren’t a part of. Do you realize the system doesn’t even let you try to votekick people right away? you have to wait awhile just in case it is something ‘real quick’. When the expedition is half over, its clear it wasn’t ‘real quick’.

The system doesn’t have to decide anything. Just don’t give a 30 minute deserter debuff for island expeditions, or give islands their own internal timer as another poster suggested.

@Gilescorey thank you for helping to point out the abuses enabled by the current system

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

If my anecdotal experience is immaterial, isn’t the OP’s anecdotal experience also immaterial? Isn’t your assertion that it ‘happens plenty’ based on your own anecdotal experience and thus also immaterial?

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

No, it’s based on the basic overarching concept of a system that is easily abused and is time and time again. Not mine, yours, or the OPs very limited experience.

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

No, it’s based on the basic overarching concept of a system that is easily abused and is time and time again.

Are you choosing not to acknowledge that the abuses of the previous iteration were worse and wasted more people’s time?

One person not able to queue up for 30 minutes is better than four people not being able to queue up for 30 minutes.

[Hellasha-alleria (Hellasha)]

Yes it’s a proper way to handle the system. It’s better then the alternative of having a tank/healer queue hop mid pull. If you find yourself in a group comprised primarily of afkers (and that bothers you) leave and go do something else or switch to an alt.

[Rhielle-sentinels (Rhielle)]

This happens plenty in island expeditions where two people sit back idly knowing they can’t be kicked.

Sit back and what? Lose? For what reason? I have never heard of anyone experiencing this, nor have I experienced it either. Across three servers, I’ve never heard anyone complain they had “idle people” in their groups of IEs who somehow never got kicked, thereby holding the third person hostage in the group.

I know you work in law enforcement so this may be difficult for you to grasp

a proper way to handle group dynamics and just?

It’s the only way to handle it. There is no other way. People want people out of the group, no matter what the reason, a debuff is given. Lesser or worse offense is meaningless. There’s no “just” or “unjust.” It is what it is: a debuff given to all if a vote passes. Even across the board. Because there is no way to determine who is “right” or “wrong.”

[Sakurä-suramar (Sakurä)]

if they’re afk do they not deserve to be kicked?

Assume for a moment that I’m diabetic. Because of this, I have to pee more often than normal due to a high level of blood sugar (glucose).

Given this, I’m running an island expedition with you and a guildmate of mine. I stop suddenly because I have to pee. I say in chat that I’ll be right back. At that point, by definition, I’m technically AFK. By your reasoning, should I be kicked from the group? Does that make me someone who is afk levelling? And what happens, then, when I return one minute later ready to finish the expedition?

Can you not see how utterly ridiculous you sound? The other person wasn’t as afk as you thought, or they weren’t gone very long. That doesn’t justify voting to kick them. The fact that the other 2 are guildmates only further assures you that neither is getting kicked from the group. Ultimately, this is working as intended and there is nothing Blizzard needs to “address”.

The issue isn’t with the vtk its with the deserter. 0/10 troll

Sounds like there is no issue. If you have to troll your own thread, no one will take you seriously.

Oh, and this:

there are zero good reasons why a player not contributing at all

Does not correlate with this:

prevent someone else who is contributing from joining instances for 30 minutes

Rather, you lost the ability to join instances for 30 minutes because you were kicked, not because the other person wasn’t afk.

So now you’re just going to randomly call people trolls for no reason, because you didn’t like their answer. Real nice.

Yep. Can’t take this one seriously after seeing that.

This happens plenty in island expeditions where two people sit back idly knowing they can’t be kicked.

Well if the other 2 are doing that, then I would just take the debuff and leave. Why should you do all the work for them when you didn’t volunteer to?

Do you realize the system doesn’t even let you try to votekick people right away?

Yep.

you have to wait awhile just in case it is something ‘real quick’. When the expedition is half over, its clear it wasn’t ‘real quick’.

And you could issue the vtk, except that it failed and apparently for good reason.

Just don’t give a 30 minute deserter debuff for island expeditions, or give islands their own internal timer as another poster suggested.

Again, as you’ve already been told, the system does not know WHY someone was removed, only that they were. How would the system be able to tell you disconnected because of internet issues versus disconnection because the power went out? It can’t, therefore it errs on the side of caution and gives the debuff. Not a perfect system, but the best one yet.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

One person not able to queue up for 30 minutes is better than four people not being able to queue up for 30 minutes.

Actually, this is a completely false statement. An egalitarian approach, but again dodging that it could be improved.

In reality, a lot of the issue falls on Blizzard wanting to force people into content they don’t really like. They’re so proud of their content and want people to play and love all of it that they incentivize random queueing for the purposes of feeding their egos and getting people to play that content.

You can say “well there’s no one stopping you from queueing up individually for a specific instance or expedition”, but with Blizzard implementing such great random rewards, it actually does disincentivize you—and for no purpose other than getting people to see/do all of their content over and over again, even the bad ones, frankly, like how Stonecore was mentioned above.

There’s a way to revert and make it better, and it’s a novel concept—don’t give people extra rewards for trying to get people to play a certain way (even a way they dislike, yet feel obligated to do then wind up slacking/abusing the system), let them play how they want to play and do the content they want to do for the sake of doing it.

Then you have active, healthy, happy groups much more often. I hated Halls of Lightning. But it was a false choice to say “queue individually for Gundrak over and over again.”

[Tarindre-azuresong]

I’m assuming by AFK that you mean they were sitting at the ship watching Netflix or whatever. No, I shouldn’t be expected to facilitate someone’s carry or get penalized, that’s what premades are for. Not that it would help much but Blizz could just file it under VtK abuse.

[Gilescorey-rexxar]

Incredible how you edit out the parts that give it context and respond to individual statements while shredding the meaning of the whole thing.

[Ohgodmyeyez-hyjal]

Actually, this is a completely false statement. An egalitarian approach, but again dodging that it could be improved.

Then… suggest an improvement. Seriously, if you can make the VTK system better such that it adequately punishes people who deserve a kick and doesn’t punish those who don’t, I am keenly interested.