More people that want to be there sure.
But the majority of people in delves that are going into mplus aren’t doing it because they want too.
Same as people like me that have to go into delves even though I don’t want too.
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I don’t think there is either. I’ve been more than happy to help people break into m+ or over certain thresholds
Incorrect. They were made for a specific demographic. Are they available for everyone, yes. But doesn’t detract from the fact they were designed for specific people (much like mythic raids). M+ was designed for groups of friends, but available to all. Same thing
Well which one is it? Get a group or go pug? lol
Yes, but you also started in the proper places, +2, +3 and worked your way up. You didn’t just go “oh, i’ll just open up with 6s and fail until i don’t”.
You can’t get the requirements to upgrade from staying in delves. The next thing is m+. Most people who spend time in delves do so because they don’t want to deal with m+. But to upgrade their gear, they go into m+ begrudgingly (meaning they don’t want to) to upgrade their gear.
Taking away that need keeps everyone happy.
You mean like m+ before delves? lol it is funny watching all the m+ people whine and moan about delve loot yet they didn’t have a problem when m+ loot was insanely good too for a 15-20min dungeon that was faceroll. m+10 was a joke yet your loot was heroic raid ilvl and higher?
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People that don’t want to do M+ are still not doing M+. People that want to try are trying. Some are washing out and others will learn.
You didn’t have to in S1 and you’ll have even less incentive to do so in S2. You won’t have 100 ilvls to span and you won’t have keys hoarded. This is a temporary problem for you that might be solved by the next expansion.
No reason to overreact and nuke delves because a few people want a smoother S1.
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I have not seen anything but simple gear from the delves. I get better from world quests. I mean I am getting ret, prot, or gear for other classes.
Sure, and if delves were in the same league as other forms of PvE content, I’d be willing to let it slide. Especially with them being the new, shiny toy.
But they aren’t even close. It would take 2.5 +6 keys to expect to get a single item that’s within 3 item levels of what is guaranteed out of every T8 delve provided you have a coffer key, with the same area of vault reward as well. Dungeons are designed knowing there will be multiple kicks, multiple tops, a dedicated tank and healer, and thus are mechanically far more challenging than the single-mechanic mobs and 3-mechanic bosses in delves that are expected to be soloed by any spec. A well-run dungeon by players that would benefit from the gear from that dungeon is going to take 25 - 30 minutes when factoring in group formation time; a T8 delve can be completed in 10 minutes.
There is not a single quality of gearing in M+ before +7s that is better than T8 delve gearing outside of the need for a coffer key, there only being 4 available bountiful delves per day, and crests. M+ takes longer, depends on other people to perform, is mechanically designed and tuned to be much harder, and you only wind up with a 40% chance of taking home an item at the end.
Any change to make it such that the gearing were in the same ballpark and I would be more receptive to accepting that it’s just the nature of trying to marry two distinct systems. But it’s pretty clear that delves are a massive outlier today for gearing.
There are two problems with this though.
First, and I mentioned this in the first section, there is a heavy incentive for anyone with limited time to play to get as much gear from delves due to how efficient they are for that purpose. Unless you specifically want to target IO or crests as part of the run, there’s no comparison between a 10 minute soloable guaranteed 603 champion piece and a 25-30 minute chance to fail group activity with a 40% chance at a 606 champion piece.
This is especially true for players that will cap out at a much higher key level by season’s end, but their limiting factor on a new character/in a new season is gear. I like M+, but I was never a fan of needing to run much lower keys for my usual level when I want to get a new character going. That was basically a chore for me. I’m certain many others feel that way as well.
Second, and probably more importantly, there are players who can get through a T8 delve that cannot get through a +6. If they worked through the lower keys for gear and to practice, they might be able to get to the point where they can succeed in +6 keys and beyond. But having a shortcut to the gear without needing to figure out dungeon mechanics and how their spec operates in a group environment with far more mechanics will set them up for failure on the other side. They won’t have any tangible benefit to run anything lower than a +7, but they will not have built the skills to allow them to succeed in such a key.
As I’ve said numerous times, this is a self-inflicted wound to some degree. But I also feel like designing the reward structure to be this slanted also shares some of the blame.
You need to do a t8 bountiful delve with a key for gear. Or find a map in a delve and use it.
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I thought the complaint was delves replace the need to run single digit M+? Now it is replacing high end M+ and Raid gear? Does that content just not give gear?
I will say if all the people running double digit M+ and Heroic/mythic raids are stuck in the same 619-626 range Delvers cap out at then yes that would be a problem. lol
I see where I can’t win.
I’ll bow out, I have no business talking about M+, I’ll get shouted down.
I’ll still brick every key intentionally if you clowns get my Delves nerfed.
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People make the choice to do things they don’t want to do all the time though. M+ is one of those things because it’s a means to an end. May not be an enjoyable journey, but it’s the end they’re looking for
You’re factually wrong though. It’s such an issue even Ion commented they are looking into it
Actually I did. I’m not explaining this to you again.
No one is nuking delves. The sky is not falling.
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Single digit keys include one below the top of the rewards threshold. Delves drop comparable loot to heroic raids and +7 keys, which is right about Keystone Master range.
Can’t when when youre so biased you ignore reality.
That just hurts you and makes you look like a toxic person.
I didn’t say they were? I said it would be a poor solution to a temporary problem that won’t exist between S2 and S4.
Ion said that people are trying to skip key levels because they aren’t seeing upgrades until a certain range. He did not say people were being forced into content they don’t want to do.
Explaining that you choose to play at a level that causes you to make further choices won’t mean you are “forced” to do so no matter how many times you explain it.
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I think the problem is there are too many levels of content and not enough levels of gear to spread out across it. Content stretches across open world, delves, dungeons, heroic dungeons, LFR, mythic dungeons, raids, heroic raids, mythic raids. Gear is just adventurer, veteran, champ, hero, mythic.
I wouldn’t be adverse to making clearer separations there. WQ=Adventure, Delve = Veteran, Champ = Raid, hero = M+ and Heroic Raid, Mythic = Mythic raid. Or however it shakes out. The problem is then either all the content or all the gear needs rebalanced to fit into that new paradigm.
If your assertion is the gear overlap never should have been a thing in the first place I wouldn’t disagree but un-baking that cake at this point isn’t really something that can be done. If you were to nerf delve gear at this point you would make doing Zek impossible for a lot of people and remove any reason for anyone else to run delves.
I can’t see them kneecaping their new xpac gimmick that quickly unless other systems are just falling apart because of it. Making the first few tiers of M+ sloppy doesn’t really rise to that level of concern.
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That’s not too dissimilar to ehat we already have, except for Delve gear being absurdly high. I’d put it at Champion vault and otherwise leave it as is, that’s more than enough for any content in delves currently.
I’d also not implement such changes mid-season, they should be done between seasons.
If you cap Delves at 619 and adjust the content to fit it I wouldn’t have issue with that. You would probably still need to give Zek a nerf near the end of the season to let additional folks clear it but that would be fine by me.
That doesn’t really solve the problem people claim they are complaining about though. It just nerfs delve gear. You are still overlapping lower tier M+.
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Bro, you reached KSH on 10/16 or a month after the season dropped. You’re a total sweat lord. Your opinion about Delve rewards is completely useless, lol.
Why not let the people that actually play Delves as their only form of progression be the judge about how hard or not hard they are. I know for many, that are not OP classes, Delves t8 are challenging, and delves t11 are next to impossible without having high enough gear, and Zek’vir, or any challenge like it? Forget it.
Delves are in a perfectly fine spot. With the amount of sweat you and people like you put into the game, you can completely ignore them.
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I would. Let the M+ weirdos cry about it, Delves are their own pillar.
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For a single character sure. Alts exist. Especially when metas shift extremely hard