Decrease Gpy travel time?

PVP Arenas
107

Wdym? We have the same instants we did in legion? Infact we had a bit more because phoenix flames was BASELINE and not a talent.

It could very well be toxic and a silly mechanic. I’m still waiting on the community to make buff fire so we can delete gypro threads.

I only see REE GPYRO AND SHIMMER. funny thing is I’m in top 500 US atm at 2300CR and i’ve climbed without shimmer so.

Thats fine but frost has nothing to do with this discussion. Fact is in a PVE enviroment where there isn’t defensive cds, kicks, stuns, micro-interrupts fire is the lowest performing PVE spec. If you pop in a rando m+10 in lfg and be like hey guiz fire mage hurr reportin to do deepz. You will get declined they don’t want you. These are in enviroments where the spec has the best oppurtunity to press their buttons and do the highest damage they can muster. It flops and is undesired. What does that amount to when classes who do enormously more damage and don’t have to cast chase that player around lobbing every stun and micro interrupt and kick their way when they attempt to cast in a non gpyro build?

There you go. Obviously it should just be removed .

Your not wrong on that except thats it a 4.5 baseline cast, and 3.7 and 22% haste. If i drop my 18% versatility for 3% more haste it becomes a 3.6. Fire mages dont have icy veins and the only way to get it down to a 3 second cast would be to have 3x flames of alacrity, remove all crit from your gear and HOPE that non of your fireballs crit and reset the stacking haste buff- which was also recently cut by 50% so you would need massive stacks. Furthermore flames of alacrity is DISPELLABLE. so??? Sleeping at the wheel much?

But there are no adjustments. Thats the problem. Generic traits are better then our main traits. Our spec doesn’t do damage. All 3 mage specs are bottom of wowlogs in PVE they don’t do damage compared to every other class in the game.

What keeps FROST viable is the fact they can run around and slow the world and stall the game till deep deep dampening. Fire doesn’t have slows or that utility.

You got ring, breath and gpyro over frost. Gotta make it count. Frostbolt does more damage then fireball and is a faster cast AND has the bonus utility of a 65% slow attached to it.

4.5 baseline. No one has the haste possible to make it 3 yet. At best your looking at 3.5 with haste everywhere you can stuff it.

Whens the last time you actually que’d arena as fire? I’m curious now. You seem very out of touch with its mechanics/playstyle.

Perhaps you should login on one today, level up if needed. Do some PVE and PVP and really see what the spec has to offer and whats really wrong with it on a core level. Mage forums and discord are very vocal about its issues and lack of synergy and poor scaling, poor damage and overall clunkiness and how bad the majority of our talents are. Before commenting on fire mages go play one is all I’m gonna say.

108

Just because you had more instants in legion didn’t mean you actually had as much instant damage combos as you do now. You simply have more instant burst damage that is higher than your numbers were in legion - which is the main reason greater is good because it gives you the opportunity to follow up with a ton of damage right after a cast goes off which was not possible before - and fire was more of a sustained damage spec.

What does PvE have to do anything with arenas? Why are you even using this as part of your discussion rofl. You could apply this whole logic “omg in pve environment you can do whatever” to every spec so it just evens out anyways hence it’s an irrelevant talking point. Imagine a destro warlock saying this

I meant it to be worded as a 3+ second cast but I don’t think my point got across that you’re literally sitting still for a very long period of time as a mage and it’s actually effective - there’s a problem in that design. As for this part of your point

Let’s be real that’s only gunna be a realistic counterplay tomorrow, when purges are more cost effective

Again what does PvE have to do with PvP in any way

Duh no one is disagreeing that there aren’t issues with the spec/class I’ve literally consistently said greater pyro should just be removed as a mechanic and fire get adjusted accordingly

It’s also like you think I don’t try to know every single class I play against too - obviously have to know counterplay before you can do anything.

Plus one of my main partners is one of the best fire mages as well through legion and last season too - don’t think he disagrees that greater pyro is a stupid ability either. You’re assuming I have no frame of reference but it’s not really the case I am also not even suggesting fire get deleted but you’re panicking and thinking that’s what I’m suggesting

109

Just give it like a 2sec cooldown, you so cant just spam in back-to-back.
Also 2sec cooldown won’t ruin the Gpie into RoF into Gpie combo.

But still, why so much complaining about Gpie, when the ladder is infested with destro locks, doing 50k chaos bolts on average with 1.5sec cast?

110

Because removing gpyro from the equation and putting the class in a situation of doing as much DPS as they can pull fire ends up bottom 4 of warcraft logs?

Now throw that class into PVP filled with stuns, defensives, kicks, micro interrupts and it plays out awful. Fire does pitiful damage in PVE, some of the lowest in game.

Now its fighting the same players who are doing 10x their damage and stunning and kicking them while they do it. We all have gpyro on our bars for that reason alone.

You don’t cast, you don’t have to kite. You simply chase and slam a PVE rotation like any other melee and interrupt any important casts. All I have seen from you or anyone else from this point is BEGGING and PLEADING with blizzard to put mages n a situation where they need to attack you with lowest dps and damage in the game so you can freely train them without any real thread or deterrant to do it.

You want changes fine but start with HOW you would like to see mages accomplish dealing damage in a PVP environment and what level of damage is acceptable that puts them on competitive footing with other casters and melee output?

Warlocks are able to achieve this by being brick walls with multi school offensive casting and 50k+ bolts on a 1.5 cast.

So how do you propose mages do competitive damage in arena without just instant flopping to a melee cleave without gpyro/shimmer? I haven’t seen you breathe a single mfin word of what mage talents to buff, what cast times should be changed, what talents need changing, what the scaling and damage should be. Zilch nada take a look at your posting history for yourself.

Until then. Gpyro is fine. Shimmer is fine. Both should stay exactly how they are until we see actual thought out design changes that wouldnt flop a class overnight.

Just saying I DONT LIKE THESE THEY ARE TOXIC REMOVE THEM. Puts a red neon sign above your head that says you just want a class gutted since apparently you have nothing else to say beyond that.

Change my mind

111

Warcraft logs!

112

Quite in an import tool. If the ele shaman barely does little more damage then tanks and healers. How is that ele gonna manage to kill someone or pressure them when the guy doing 5-10x his damage is beating his face down with his other partner who does some of the highest DPS in the game.

Btw both of them stun and self heal until dampening reachs a point where they need more effort from healers.

Cool you got a full hex off, its too bad that healer probally doesn’t have to trinket because they can trivially outheal and use short cds to shrug it off. Hopefully your healers blue bar doesnt expire for another 5-10 mins. Given the rate of DPS/Pressure they provide vs yours- doesnt seem to be the case unfort.

So yea its highly relevant. You only have to take a look at sub to see how popular a spec that does no damage is in a 3v3 arena.

Sub is also vastly underperforming in PVE as well. Why? Bc it does no effin damage.

So if wowlogs shows a class does some of the lowest dps in the game no matter how hard they try to push their buttons, how does that translate to a pvp enviroment where some of the more meta DPS classes that far exceed their damage output also conviently can heal through the best they have to offer?

So tl:dr yes PVE is a very important measuring stick for PVP. You have the same buttons, the same abilities. If uninterrupted you aren’t far ahead of healers/tanks and there is a 50%+ power gap between you and the top performer its not hard how to deduce your same class will fair vs those top performers. Hence the metas, hence the fotm. Taking gimmicks out of equations your left with that.

Warlocks are #1 in PVE and PVP in the damage department. Wonder why you see so many of them queing? Its because they…DO A METRIC TON OF PVE DPS and when they go into PVP they stand in middle of map and do a metric ton of pve dps to you while being nearly unkillable in process.

If thats too hard for you idk what to offer you fam. If my same casted fireballs made me #1 PVE dps god. There is a fair chance when i start hitting you with fireballs in PVP your gonna be like OMFG THIS DAMAGE IS NUTS.

So we can deduce if warlocks are #1 on wowlogs and pve dps meters because chaos bolt hits like a truck, its a fair assumption to say when they que arena and start casting at you insteaf of a PVE boss. Your gonna be sweating it and looking to CD rotate and stop every bolt you can.

113

Demo is top dps yet everyone queues destro.

Boomy, feral, mm, ele, demo all sim higher than destro.

Fire mage is near the bottom, two behind unholy.

Dps logs prove nothing outside of patchwork dps

2 Likes
114

Demo is pretty nasty but you have to keep in mind Destro is the gpyro of warlocks. Who wants to play BM hunter of locks when you can pick up the ol Gpyro and outright delete people.

Were not talking sims like simulationcraft lol. Were talking actual fights that involve mechanics and movements. The highest measuring stick of a classes capabilities when they arent being kicked and stopped. They far exceed everyone else.

Unholy does some of the lowest dps in the game. But guess what? They don’t have to entirely PVE because their main ATTACK is substituted for its PVP variant Necrotic Strike.

If unholy did not have necrotic to work with they would be pretty awful if they just have to whittle you down and use their massive utility and defenses to try and stay alive.

Fire- substitutes its main attack, with Greater pyro
Why? Because like unholy they do pathetic damage and its a fix to their situation.

Weird how both specs are bottom of barrel performers and have…talents to use instead of their garbage other damage moves.

Both specs would be a joke if you removed necrotic/gpyro

115

That’s exactly why logs are meaningless in PvP because how you play to beat a boss and how you play to win 3 v 3 are different.

Feral one of the highest dps in the game and is absolutely trash can by many standards in 3 v 3

116

To a degree yes. You still have to do damage when you secure CC. You still have to provide pressure.

Feral can more then provide that damage. So can MM hunter.
What they cannot provide is surviving the onslaughts of DH/DK/Destro/WW going after them with equal or better damage and self healing coupled with better defensives.

Which is the opposite of fire mage. Fire mage does not do any damage, or provide any at all if they had to do it without gpyros. much like DK that would be a walking joke without necrotic. They could secure CC but they lack any pressure or damage to anything with it.

117

That’s exactly why logs are meaningless lol all that damage yet they’re still considered awful because fighting a raid boss is materially different from 3 v 3.

All logs are good for are pointing out blatant dps outliers in patchwork situations

118

Again this is the opposite of fire mage/unholy dk situation.

Both fire/unholy do the worst DPS in the game. This situtation is remedied by honor talents Gypro and Necrotic strike as a bandage fix to the real problem.

Fire and unholy would be the worst PVP classes overnight removing both talents. You see how faster they forced cauts/block in tourny? Lol please stop avoiding that glaring fact. The class has to try to gimmick cheese a win and if it was put in a situation where they had to throw PVE only abilities at you most of them you could trivially self heal thru.

Unholy? I have yet to see one attempt to climb the ladder without their % based ability necrotic because they would be absolute garbage.

Edit: I should probally add ferals would be more then fine if they had honor talents to fix what their main dilemma in PVP right now is. Which is NOT damage

119

Ele’s logs now are the best they’ve been this expac yet ele was strongest in 8.0 using lava shock traits which also are bottom half simming. Never did the most damage and honor talents have 0 influence on ele damage. Yet the reason why ele was good was because there was a chance you’d get a 80-100k earth shock on health pools of like 140k.

Doesn’t matter how much damage you do many times, just matters how you do it. Ele was a perfect example. Never top damage in a longer 3 v 3, mediocre in logs, yet it was crazy strong because when it did damage you just got erased.

Historically frost mages have also been a good example. They’re usually top 10 in logs but how they did damage in PvE was much different than relying on a cc burst window in something like rmp.

Even ele now is strong in PvE but damage breakdown from pve to PvP could not be any different. I’m not going to expect to kill someone in 3s on flameshock damage.

120

Ele is drastically different mechanically from mage and dk. as I just said above.

A fire mage, unlike an ele has to do their and cast a pve rotation for damage outside of instants if you remove gpyro from equasion.

I cast fireball in PVE, I cast fireball in PVP. If it crits in PVE I press fireblast midcast of next fireball and launch an instant crit pyro with it. If PVP it would have to be the same thing.

In both situations the damage is trivial and irrelevant. It barely dents a warlocks passive soul leech. Given that you understand now we don’t proc instant pyros that hit for 80-100k like earth shock. We are reduced to this as our “main” form of damage.

Fireball is the bread and butter of fire. You have baseline 2 charges of fireblast on a 10 second recharge. You can talent flame on for 3 instant fireblasts on an 8 second recharge.

These charges are used to generate hotstreak when you’ve landed a critical hit on fireball/scorch and gain the “heating up buff”. Hotstreak out instant pyro hits for average of 12k non crit, and 19kish with crits (Its also purgeable)

You’ve now used 1 of your 2 or 3 8-10 second recharge abilities an attempt to do damage.

If I had to sit there and cast 5-7k fireballs at you over and over. There would never be a situtation you would actually be concerned or at risk. If i wanted to tank 1000 rating I could que up as Sub/Fire mage with fireball build and watch the laughs and cringe unfold. Both specs do no damage.

So ele is not a perfect example. You don’t have the same dps methods in PVE/PVP as fire and frost and arcane do. Even unholy falls in with us. Why is you dont see any frost dks??

Warlocks are also like us. They press their buttons the same way in PVE/PVP except in both situations their dps is top of charts because chaos bolt hits like a truck in BOTH situations.

The inverse is true, if gpyro was spammable and usable in PVE instead of our other spells we would be middle of pack or higher up using only that spell.

See how that works?

121

That’s where you’re wrong. Chaos bolt does 65% more damage in pvp.

And ele rotation is pretty similar main difference being you hold onto maelstrom longer in PvP and use traits that she garbage in pve

122

Because of an honor talent modfication to keep them competitive.
Just like fire has an honor talent Greater Pyroblast to keep them competitive.
Just like unholy has an honor talent Necrotic strike to keep them competitive.

Warlocks take the PVP mod on chaos bolt because they are not cleaving them with havoc because it would be less effective and havoc is also dispellable.

IF it wasn’t they would probally not run focused chaos. I don’t main a warlock and can’t speak for it. but I’m feeling like it would be viable for cleave/rot comp if havoc couldnt be dispelled.

Bottom line is, if unholy had to use scourge over necrotic and pve rotation you they would be extinct like frost dks

If fire had to PVE rotation you without greater pyroblast they would also be extinct overnight.

Unholy/Fire are in the same boat for this. BOTH are the lowest DPS in game, and both would dissappear from arena overnight if they lost honor talents gpyro/necrotic and had to rely on their pve dps abilities instead of them.

Both are bottom of wowlogs because those same said pve abilities barely keep them over healers and tanks.

Both would be in arena flailing on you with trivial damage like a sub rogue in those scenarios.

Understand now?

At the start of the expansion fire was REAAALY bad before triple mblaster and multiple aura buffs. Fire itself is back in that position once again.

123

The fact that you have to talk about different cases for different specs is further proof that logs are generally useless.

124

Not at all different classes are different.

Mages use the same abilities in both PVE and PVP across all 3 specs.
We cast, we get procs, we do damage with said procs.

Frost has a 65% slow and 2 blocks and 2 roots and a passive slow on its shield and cone of cold to get by on between setups.

Arcane, well arcane does have respectable damage and can spam spellsteal forever its not very popular, overnerfed and a shadow of its legion version no one plays it really.

Fire being our other main spec. has no kiting ability, no 65% slow, no double block, or double root. Its filler spell does less damage then frost without the slow.

Its purpose is to do damage only it does no damage. Blizzard instead of addressing our poor talents, poor ability scaling, and trainwreck of a class decided in their infinite wisdom Gpyro is our solution.

Dks? Same exact thing only Frost DK is like arcane and in a much much worse position then it. Unholy like fire does pathetic damage and has multitudes of issues holding it back. Blizzards solution was to buff deathstrike and make necrotic strike % based like gpyro.

No one is thrilled about it but no one seems to have any other input then complaints and nothing to say about fixing whats wrong at a core level.

125

My overpowered spell is fine. even someone else who uses my overpowered spell thinks it is fine.

Sounds legit.

3 Likes
126

Quite legit and fine. I lost to this player/class/spec REEEE nerf them. All you see around here