Decrease Gpy travel time?

[Dilly-3613 (Dillon)]

@Setback-illidan-4258

Because removing gpyro from the equation and putting the class in a situation of doing as much DPS as they can pull fire ends up bottom 4 of warcraft logs?

There’s plenty of times a spec is good in PvE and bad in PvP and vise versa and logs have no relevancy towards this.

For example feral druid damage in PvE is great but they’re not too good in arenas.

SV hunters are also another one that shows up low on PvE sims, doesn’t mean that translates to PvP (personally don’t think damage is an issue for this spec). Affliction warlocks are also quite strong damage wise in PvE, doesn’t translate into PvP.

So many factors you can use so this is just a silly one.

Your overall DPS doesn’t matter much in PvP either especially when you’re playing a burst class lol, mage just needs to kill someone in a go not do sustained damage.

@Setback-illidan-4258

You don’t cast, you don’t have to kite. You simply chase and slam a PVE rotation like any other melee and interrupt any important casts. All I have seen from you or anyone else from this point is BEGGING and PLEADING with blizzard to put mages n a situation where they need to attack you with lowest dps and damage in the game so you can freely train them without any real thread or deterrant to do it.

If that’s what you think I’m saying then you must be blind, I never said mages need 0 compensation just that there should be changes so that you’re never needing to use an ability like greater pyro to be successful - it should not be the tool that’s making them viable which is all anyone reasonable is arguing.

You’re also severely underestimating the value of instant damage in a go lol.

@Setback-illidan-4258

So how do you propose mages do competitive damage in arena without just instant flopping to a melee cleave without gpyro/shimmer? I haven’t seen you breathe a single mfin word of what mage talents to buff, what cast times should be changed, what talents need changing, what the scaling and damage should be. Zilch nada take a look at your posting history for yourself.

I don’t even think talents are the way to go can just buff base damage imo - I’d assume blizzard would go for a less complex route than just buffing every talent which also doesn’t necessarily help you in every situation. I’m also against honor talents just giving damage/healing increases over utility anyways (although I have nothing wrong with flamecannon/firestarter etc).

Realistically you can just see baseline fireball/pyro increases and as long as you still have the opportunity to 100-0 someone in clean goes I think it’s fine - that should be the main focus of fire, landing CC chains and 100-0ing someone with it. The reason why greater pyro becomes problematic is because it gives you win win situations that make things incredibly difficult to balance. Instead of your focus on getting CC chains, fire is essentially sit there and spam greater pyro because if it goes off you can potentially end the game right there, but if they stop it then you can get a clean go and then go for a set up without requiring a gpyro to kill someone.

This is the core reason why greater pyro is bad because it existing as your optimal and strongest build means that your other sources of damage simply have to suck in order to not be incredibly broken. It makes it really difficult to improve the spec especially with current game pacing and the fact that fire actually has burst damage again (you might have had a more fluid rotation in Legion but you also were just doing sustained dps the entire time, your burst was much lower which is why greater pyro was pretty useless). If fire has burst then greater pyro is just obnoxious, and I still think a core of fire has always fundamentally been setting up good burst combos and 100-0ing someone, greater pyro just makes a much more brainless version of this which isn’t as cool.

[Setback-illidan-4258 (Setback)]

@Dillon-sargeras

There’s plenty of times a spec is good in PvE and bad in PvP and vise versa and logs have no relevancy towards this.

For example feral druid damage in PvE is great but they’re not too good in arenas.

SV hunters are also another one that shows up low on PvE sims, doesn’t mean that translates to PvP (personally don’t think damage is an issue for this spec). Affliction warlocks are also quite strong damage wise in PvE, doesn’t translate into PvP.

So many factors you can use so this is just a silly one.

Your overall DPS doesn’t matter much in PvP either especially when you’re playing a burst class lol, mage just needs to kill someone in a go not do sustained damage.

This is solely about fire and it is very relevant. Fire barely outdamages tanks and healers in PVE. Outside of a 2 minute dispellable combustion they don’t have anywhere near the go strength of other classes atm when you remove gypro.

If your pooling 3 instants on an 8 second recharge each, it means you are literally doing virtually ZERO damage outside of it. You must consume them to use instant pyro and do damage. You aren’t doing a single thing if your sitting there spamming fireballs over and over and over waiting for a setup. any team could literally push in on you and kill you because you have no pressure to put them defensive. Period. Thats assuming that every resource dedicated to stopping gpyro isnt instead using on fireballs to prevent you from doing any sort of damage while your hp bar gets blown up with your healers mana bar.

Gpyro forces a team to be defensive and back off because you can’t just train the mage because if he DOES happen to land one it could setup a win condition.

The entire time you sat there training and chasing how much healer mana went into keeping him alive? How much mana did your healer even have to expend because you shut someone down and put out constant pressure that could secure a win condition the same with a trap while you steadily chunk someone down.

Fire would be unable to force a win outside of a 2 minute window if they only had fireball, 3x fireblasts and a meteor to lean on. It would be more heavily in the YOU GOT OUTPLAYED zone and how well their partners did then anything else. Especially considering you can easily kick fireball/scorch.

@Dillon-sargeras

Your overall DPS doesn’t matter much in PvP either especially when you’re playing a burst class lol, mage just needs to kill someone in a go not do sustained damage.

It does when your burst without a 2 minute cd is very ehhh and managable. I’m curious to know how many times you’ve died to a fire mage outside combustion and no gpyro used. How much of that did the mage actually contribute? I reckon very little and he played more of a CC bot role and threw in what he could if it does happen to you.

@Dillon-sargeras

if that’s what you think I’m saying then you must be blind, I never said mages need 0 compensation just that there should be changes so that you’re never needing to use an ability like greater pyro to be successful

I’m not blind and thats exactly what you’ve said because you HAVE NOT SAID what mages need tuned and changed only then gypro is toxic and should be nerfed/removed. Show me WHERE you have said Fireball needs massive buffs, Living bomb needs big buffs, talent tiers need looking at. Fireball needs reduced cast time. Azerite talents need better interaction with the spec. Combustion being dispelled with hotstreak needs looking at

SHOW ME WHERE YOU HAVE SAID THIS If you cannot then you infact only want to see a class gutted. Perhaps its because you don’t play the comp or a mage? Because I have yet to see you once in any thread talk about anything related to fire other then nerfing something.

@Dillon-sargeras

I don’t even think talents are the way to go can just buff base damage imo

Which shows you know next to nothing about fire these days.

@Dillon-sargeras

Realistically you can just see baseline fireball/pyro increases and as long as you still have the opportunity to 100-0 someone in clean goes I think it’s fine - that should be the main focus of fire, landing CC chains and 100-0ing someone with it

Which would be fine if fire could do this. Didn’t need dispellable 2 minute cd/procs to do it. As well as it had meaningful damage outside of this. Which is why it doesnt and which is why you see all mage mains spammin gpyro lul.

Imagine if burt had played double firestarter/flamecannon spec in tourny. ROFL you really think they would have had ANY chance? How about Destro/fire with fireball build mage?? Please get with reality here.

[Smash-vashj]

After like 100 replies have you actually responded in a meaningful way to the actual thread content?

What is your opinion on leaving everything else about Gpy the same and lowering the travel time? The time between Gpy hits is not affected by this change, nor is the time you have to activate damage reduction defensives (calculated for most spells including Gpy on spell release).

[Setback-illidan-4258 (Setback)]

I have none whatsoever on increasing it. Heck make it instant or fly at you at mach 10 wouldn’t bug me.

I’m sorry you don’t find my input meaningful but I actually play the class.
Would you feel the same if I demanded X and Y on shaman be changed even if I didnt know the first thing about playing one.

Grounding should only be 1 spell like it used to be. Lightning lasso shouldn’t stun and earthshock should be capped at 20kish damage.

Whats your input on that?

[Dilly-3613 (Dillon)]

@Setback-illidan-4258

This is solely about fire and it is very relevant. Fire barely outdamages tanks and healers in PVE. Outside of a 2 minute dispellable combustion they don’t have anywhere near the go strength of other classes atm when you remove gypro.

Dude the entire point is that a spec being good/bad in PvE has almost never translated to PvP. Plenty of time a bottom of the meters spec is really powerful in PvP and vise versa.

@Setback-illidan-4258

If your pooling 3 instants on an 8 second recharge each, it means you are literally doing virtually ZERO damage outside of it. You must consume them to use instant pyro and do damage. You aren’t doing a single thing if your sitting there spamming fireballs over and over and over waiting for a setup. any team could literally push in on you and kill you because you have no pressure to put them defensive. Period. Thats assuming that every resource dedicated to stopping gpyro isnt instead using on fireballs to prevent you from doing any sort of damage while your hp bar gets blown up with your healers mana bar.

I am aware that waiting for burst means you’re not doing sustained damage… this is like arena 101?

@Setback-illidan-4258

Fire would be unable to force a win outside of a 2 minute window if they only had fireball, 3x fireblasts and a meteor to lean on. It would be more heavily in the YOU GOT OUTPLAYED zone and how well their partners did then anything else. Especially considering you can easily kick fireball/scorch.

I mean Samiyam used to give up Greater Pyro a ton in BfA season 1 because you could have enough effectiveness outside of it especially vs comps that would train you/rogue mage mirrors if you just played around going for your set ups and ran the other time. Or just Fire Mage hpal teams that played less around greater pyro and just going for goes off CD with bops etc.

Problem is instead of Greater Pyro being nerfed your other sources of damage got nerfed in s2 and health pools went up and the game pace became slower so greater pyro is really the only valuable choice when it just opens up as silly gameplay as DH mana rift (low risk high reward).

I would literally be absolutely fine if they made fire mages able to just crush people in a go or have higher pyro damage etc., honestly I think most people would - but if greater pyro is a viable option in those scenarios then you stop needing a go entirely with CC to get your kill you just put them in a situation that if they stop greater you go for sheep/rof in which case you just win anyways unless you stop all 3.

@Setback-illidan-4258

It does when your burst without a 2 minute cd is very ehhh and managable. I’m curious to know how many times you’ve died to a fire mage outside combustion and no gpyro used. How much of that did the mage actually contribute? I reckon very little and he played more of a CC bot role and threw in what he could if it does happen to you.

Why do you think this is from my perspective and coming from somewhere that I hate mages and not me wanting them to be better and not relying on a gimmick rofl

@Setback-illidan-4258

I’m not blind and thats exactly what you’ve said because you HAVE NOT SAID what mages need tuned and changed only then gypro is toxic and should be nerfed/removed. Show me WHERE you have said Fireball needs massive buffs, Living bomb needs big buffs, talent tiers need looking at. Fireball needs reduced cast time. Azerite talents need better interaction with the spec. Combustion being dispelled with hotstreak needs looking at

SHOW ME WHERE YOU HAVE SAID THIS If you cannot then you infact only want to see a class gutted. Perhaps its because you don’t play the comp or a mage? Because I have yet to see you once in any thread talk about anything related to fire other then nerfing something.

I don’t want to see them gutted at all, I mean you can literally go through any of my last posts and stop having a panic attack that I’m pointing out greater pyro is silly and you’d see that I think it’s better for fire to be stronger in every other area and have greater pyro not exist since it’s a tremendous gimmick. Relying on a gimmick just creates boring play as/against - regardless of winning or losing.

@Setback-illidan-4258

Which shows you know next to nothing about fire these days.

While PvE talents need help, I don’t think you necessarily have to do too much to their honor talents as long as they get adjustments in other areas, I don’t think there’s really anything wrong with just flat buffing them which is more likely anyways than looking towards this direction. Could literally buff fireballs/scorch/ignite/pyro/fireblasts etc baseline even a pretty good amount and I wouldn’t care.

@Setback-illidan-4258

Imagine if burt had played double firestarter/flamecannon spec in tourny. ROFL you really think they would have had ANY chance? How about Destro/fire with fireball build mage?? Please get with reality here.

K what his team is playing double fire mage obviously their entire comp relies on greater pyro? Like wtf kinda example is this dude LOL - I think you’re the one who’s not in reality. You don’t need two eyes to see that double fire mage only works because greater pyro is a thing, and in general class stacking is super silly to begin with. Destro fire also obviously only works because of Greater Pyro. Those are the types of comps that honestly you wouldn’t really be expecting fire to play anyways. They’re simply only viable to play with as fire just because of greater pyro. Without it and buffs to other areas you’d just fundamentally look for different types of fire comps (Fire/Assa, Fire/Warrior, Fire/Feral, etc) which rely on momentum and getting consistent clean goes vs just spamming greater and hoping for the best.

It’s like you think I’m not understanding why Greater Pyro is the best option. I absolutely do. You could literally help fire out in any way to make up for Greater Pyro being gone as long as you just still have the core play-style of the spec to just have the potential for the most reliable solo CC chains and damage to kill in those goes. I would be completely fine if the spec was even stronger than it was now as long as greater pyro wasn’t the gimmick that they relied on which if you stopped having a panic attack for two seconds you’d realize that’s what I’ve been saying.

[Smash-vashj]

Thank you, any feedback from people who main fire currently is useful. The goal is not to gut Gpy, but to let players get out of break-on-damage CC before there’s 200k pending damage.

Edit: To respond to your question: if you made a logical argument, I wouldn’t care what class you played.

[Reimmi-dalaran (Reimmi)]

@Setback-illidan-4258

Gpyro is fine. Even Ven agrees with it.

Sorry but, ven is biased as hell.
He thinks ww and fire mage are balanced, of course he does- those are his main specs.
Not once have i heard venruki call one of his specs broken.

Having said that, the weak class/specs should be buffed over nerfing the strong ones, i’m just pointing out that venruki is not perfect. top players have bias dude.

[Mmnmmnmmnmmn-emerald-dream]

Just interrupt the 2nd one and ta da now you’ve had 8+ seconds to recover