Death Knight is Weak

Classes Death Knight
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Frost Strike wasnt your big hitter. Obliterate was since it scaled with Armor Pen.

KM procs were for both Obliterate and Frost Strike after they moved away from the spell playstyle and went to a strike playstyle. It wasnt a DW rework.

DW hit just as hard as 2h. In pve DW was getting around 25-27k Obliterate crits. Blood, which was the 2h physical damage spec at the time in terms of dps, hit for around the same.

There was no “no disease” build. There was a no plague strike playstyle in 3.2 onward ignoring blood plague for an easier playstyle, but there was no “no disease” build. Howling Blast damage was increased by 100% if you had Frost Fever on the target, Glacial Rot also increased the damage of Howling Blast, Icy Touch and Frost Strike by 10% if you had a disease on the target. To not play with a disease meant you lost a lot of damage. You lost a lot of passive damage and increase in damage of main abilities.

There was also Tundra Stalker that increased spell and ability damage by 10% to targets infected with Frost Fever. It just wasnt worth going that deep into the tree. The farthest you would go is picking up Unbreakable Armor maybe.

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  1. Too much effort? Have you actually played 2H frost? Or are you just advocating for it to be ACTUAL unga bunga Obliterate spam, as compared to the current semi-unga bunga playstyle it has?

  2. Wish they’d just dump the tuning lever on 2H Frost. Bringing it back was a mistake.

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Considering how phoned in everything about DKs is right now I’d prefer that the very little attention ding given to frost as a dps spec be spent on making it a good one. Balancing the spec around two weapon types is wasted dev time.

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No it wasnt, 2h is very good its the go to in PvP. Really though if any play style were to be removed it should be duel wield before 2h again. duel wielding on frost doesnt make any sense and it seems more like something unholy would be doing instead

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Ya a lot of people really want dw to go to unholy back the but 3.2 killed that as well. The no disease build was simple and clean but it definitely was agains the mechanics of the class at the time. We all saw the rebalancing coming, it just sucked because the play was fun.

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That’s your opinion, and that’s fine.

Many people see DKs as a 2h class because of the Lich King and that’s the fantasy they want to play.
I also love the bursty nature of 2h frost. The only reason why I’m so passionate about 2h frost is because that’s where this class started for me in wotlk. It played and felt great, then they decided to move away from 2h and be DW focused. If it was just a pure DW spec from the get go then maybe I would never even consider 2h frost as a thing. But they gave us a taste, we loved it, then they took it from us.

But it’s back now, because many (not a few) want it back. So let’s move forward with that and make the spec enjoyable for both DW/2h.

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Then play unholy. He rarely did anything frosty.

DW was this as well until people wanted to twist what the spec was. There is 0 reason… 0, of why DW could play the way you want 2h to play.

2h frost played EXACTLY like DW in Wrath but with less damage. Thats it. The only thing you didnt do in wrath was pick up Nerves of Cold Steel and Threat of Thassarian.

Prior to 3.2 however, it was spell focused. Obliterate did almost nothing for the spec. You could make it not consume diseases, and have 5% crit chance… wow. While the mechanics of the spec still heavily favored DW, like KM. It would make your Icy Touch, Frost Strike or Howling Blast a critical strike. With the build back then you wouldnt even get to the point where you would pick up Frost Strike.

So you just nerfed yourself for no reason other than “i like the look”.

You say many, when its like 20 people on the forums at best. Out of the thousands that play Frost… 20 people voiced it at best. Maybe 30… maybe. Thats not a lot.

Nope, remove 2h. Its a DW spec and has been even prior to getting ToT. Just because you had the option to nerf yourself doesnt mean that the spec should be changed and overhauled going forward.

Where is perma pet Frost or perma pet Blood? You could do that back then, you know to feel like a death knight, a commander of the undead… where is that fantasy at? Do I have to play unholy exclusively to get that fantasy? According to your argument, no I shouldnt. So bring that back even though it was a self nerf as well. How about DW blood and DW unholy… better change those specs up to include those as well. Blood DPS? Unholy tanking? Frost Tanking? What makes 2h Frost so special to get special treatment? There is no rhyme or reason to it. Its get 20 people to yell loud enough while calling for DW to get removed to get 2h back. Say that you dont care if its 20% behind DW, people just want to use it, to complain about its damage and DW being better and keep on pushing the goal post until the spec is no longer the spec people loved.

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this is completely baseless…The DK discord alone has hundreds of people excited for 2h frost this tier.
Vast majority of high end players playing DW atm only do it because its the min max option and dont actually care one way or the other. A lot of them will be moving to 2h this tier if the jailer 2h mace is everything its promising to be. They just want the spec to be good and have competitive output.

He didnt fight like UH. Death by a thousand cuts and using pets is not what matches any cinematic with the LK. He was cinematically portrayed as a 2h juggernaught. He used UH and frost spells, but his aesthetic is very frost heavy. I know you dont see it…but nearly everyone else on the planet sees it. 2H frost players want that heavy hitting bursty spec with the DK aesthetic that doesnt use pets.

Not everyone agrees with your views. You need to accept that. 2h frost is back and we want it to be the best it can be. Go back to your world quests and continue enjoying dw frost which is available to you and more than adequate for the content you play.

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I will say that he summoned undead when he fought. A lot of them were of the get close and explode type but he did summon undead when he was in battle. So you could say those were pets. His attacks were a lot of frost and unholy. But he was also a 2h Juggernaught. And we have had this argument all before with her she has the attitude of I don’t want it so you cant have it when it comes to 2h frost. Personally its been very aggravating seeing all of her post where she just argues and when someone gives proof and evidence as to what they claim it switches to something else or the always famous just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Nothing will change her mind even if the devs came out and said Frost was supposed to be 2h but due to not wanting to give Frost DK’s Frostmourne we decided to force them to be dw. Even if that was said she would still be beating this dead horse.

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No, its not completely baseless. Its based on the forums. Thats its base.

Really? Seems like high end players like the spec and not the weapon… crazy how that works. Did they say they would be moving to 2h or are you speaking for them? What do those high end players think about the set with target swaps? AoE? I mean 2h sucks for aoe so nothing is really going to change there, a lot of fights are aoe or target swaps in the raid so it kind of throws 2h in the trash can dont you think? First boss is all adds until the boss. Anduin when you fight the Lich King (thanks for ruining Arthas more Blizzard) its aoe because HE SUMMONS GHOULS.

The LK was more Unholy and you have to be willingly ignorant to not see it. The LK fight, WC3, he was an unholy warrior. 2 frost spells doesnt make him a frost DK.

If you are basing your entire view of the LK on cinematics, there is your problem. I guess its not Arthas that gets summoned by Anduin and is some imposter, or you guys just have no real interest in Arthas and the Dk class which is entirely more plausible.

Arthas was more unholy than anything else. I can list the abilities we see him use if you want. Spoilers, out of all the abilities there are 2 that are frost, 3 if you want to count making ice walls as an ability.

Just so tired of people not knowing the history of the spec talking like they do. All this stuff is documented and people can fact check you. There are videos and guides and talent trees that you can find.

This “massive DW overhaul” is nowhere to be found. Frost Strike didnt hit harder than Obliterate unless you had no Armor Pen and at that point… what were you even doing back then? There was no “diseaseless” build either. There was 1 playstyle where you ignored blood plague for more Obliterates and that was less damage as well.

Again, everything you guys have said can be checked from changelogs to guides to talent trees. Even now people are still using DW on private servers. You would think if 2h was so godly, they would have found it by now after how many years… right? Yet its not, because its not a 2h spec, its a DW spec.

Now onto Arthas… name anything other than ice walls, frozen spirits, remorseless winter, possibly hungering cold, and making an ice bridge that makes him a Frost Dk. Blue eyes are from necromantic magic, and a specific necromantic magic which is now domination magic. Frostmourne doesnt seem to do much in the way of Frost stuff and likes to devour souls, we even enter it on 2 occations and its filled with a bunch of spirits and shadow magics.

Lets look at Arthas when he started off with Frostmourne. Death Coil, Death Pact, Unholy aura, Animate Dead… not looking to good for that Frost fever dream people have.

How about in the LK fight itself in Wrath.
Summon Drudge Ghoul
Summon Shambling Horror
Necrotic Plague
Plague Siphon
Infest
Summon Shadow trap.
(thats only phase 1)

Phase 1.5 and 2.5
Remorseless Winter
Pain and Suffering
Summon Ice Sphere
Raging Spirit
Quake

Phase 2
Soul Reaper
Defile
Summon Val’kyr

Phase 3
Harvest Soul
Harvested Souls
Harvested Soul
Vile Spirits

We see an unholy theme here and you have to be blind to not see it. So I guess that means nearly everyone else on the planet is blind.

Ive been asking for over a year now for anything significant to show Arthas was Frost based. Theres nothing there.

Fury of Frostmourne!.. oh wait… deals 1,000,000 shadow damage. Sorry I got a little excited there. There was frost in the name there and I people have been pointing to “Frost” in Frostmourne like its of some significance… but its just a red herring.

How about Arthas from the Anduin fight… gotta be frost stuff there right? I mean its Arthas, his aesthetic is Frost right… oh… wait… March of the Damned summons an army to march across the arena… shadowfrost based but its more in line with unholy because its a summon. Remorseless Winter which he had in the last fight, Soul Reaper shadowfrost damage but its an unholy ability and army of the dead.

So I have absolutely 0 clue where you guys are able to make these claims from. They exist literally nowhere except in your own heads.

I do accept that people dont agree with the truth, but you cant go against the truth. Sorry, the truth is the truth, its based on facts that is based on in game abilities that Arthas actually used. And dont even start on the failure that they made Bolvar.

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No, he didnt have a lot of frost attacks. Thats just a flat out lie. Ive listed them all, he had 2 frost abilities in the LK fight, 0 in WC3.

Yes, I dont want it, but thats not the reason as to why you shouldnt have it. ITS A DW SPEC. Just like blood shouldnt have DW, its a 2h spec. What is so hard to understand about that? You constantly lie about other peoples positions.

Yes, he was a juggernaut, but not in the way that you define juggernaut as this slow thing that will kill you if they get to you. A juggernaut is just a huge, powerful and overwhelming force. It has nothing to do with slow or fast. Its just overwhelming power. Even the character Juggernaut wasnt slow.

To bad the devs already said in cata Frost was DW in an interview so this hypothetical, which is only pushed by you and a few others, is absolute nonsense. Just because you dont want to face the truth, doesnt mean that im wrong.

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I do wish blood dps worked.

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Ya I check the old talent builds and what positive things that have been said about 2h are true. It just competed with space with dw.

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That’s not really a reason for it to be around. Frost was capable of doing fine in PvP without 2h.

I don’t know how you expect me to take you seriously when you say that the playstyle Blizzard should remove is the playstyle that hasn’t been taken out of the game in the past, unlike 2h.

  1. Opinion. Frost dual-wielding makes plenty of sense, otherwise it wouldn’t have been the basis of balance for the spec and the chosen focus of the spec in Legion.

  2. Unholy has been 2h for a really, really long time. It isn’t like Frost where DW and 2h had any sort of contest of popularity. DW Unholy was kind of a meme that died in the water because it had nothing backing it up, unlike DW Frost.

It’s Unholy. Nothing about it should have ever had a build revolving around not using diseases. It’s literally the DoT-rot spec.

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Been trying to find this “diseaseless” build for frost for quite a while now, and I cant find it.

If its for unholy, Id like to know what it was. The only thing I can see working is Death Strike, Blood Boil, Death Coil, Unholy Blight (possibly), Garg, perma pet, bone shield, Necrosis, Blood Caked Blade, death and decay. Everything else wanted diseases on the target. If thats it, it sounds absolutely boring.

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You are right. There shouldn’t be a no disease build. That’s why in 3.2 they up blood plague and frost fever by 15%. This was part of the dps distribution rebalancing.basically oblit and frost strike were doing way to much damage by themselves.

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This article was written while the build I was talking about existed. It just sucks that the wowhead link is busted. I am still looking for a page that has the build still up. Also I can’t post the link.

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im sorry to break it to you but youre just forum trash, and nobody really takes your view or opinion seriously themselves. Just know the 2h community is larger than the dw community

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I can post the link if u send it to me

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Talk about a baseless statement.

Funny how the 2h community is full of people that insult others, twist arguments while making poor arguments that are rooted in absolutely nothing.

You guys are the flat earthers of the dk community. Loud, with nothing backing you up.

Funny how the people who wanted 2h, pushed for it, all quit in SL. They got 2h… so why did they quit? Maybe because its because 2h doesnt fit the spec without a complete overhaul.

You guys dont like the spec, you have never liked the spec, you like a weapon, and if you only like a weapon with big numbers you can go play 2 other specs that provide that.

Flat earthers of the DK community.

So why wouldnt you use diseases with Obliterate? Did people not like that Obliterate would do 25% more damage with diseases on them? Liked Howling Blast not doing 100% more damage? Didnt like Glacial Rot? Didnt like Tundra Stalker? Didnt like Icy Talons? Were all these talents just filler talents?

That 15% increase in damage wouldnt have changed all of a sudden that you would want to use diseases for these abilities. These % increases per disease were in the spec but they were mostly for the spells. If you used Obliterate a lot Rime would be basically useless outside of the 5% crit provided to Obliterate.

Even the reasoning behind the build if flawed. There is nothing in the changelog about Obliterate being changed at all during Wrath. No buffs, no nerfs, no design changes. It just looks like the diseases werent hitting their mark, so they buffed them by 15% across the board. Not because of a flawed build diseaseless build.

There were too many abilities that incresed in damage for having a disease on the target that it would be stupid to not put diseases on the target if you were going to use those abilities.

Just describe the build. I have a pre 3.2 talent calculator. But again, I dont see why you would ignore the entire first row of talents 2 of which interacted with diseases, one being a pre-requisite for Icy Talons, the other increasing damage of abilities if there was a disease present. The other was just a tank talent so the entire first row of Frost would just be filler to get to later talents.

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