2h wasnt superior prior to 3.2.
Again the best spec was a dw hybrid spec that picked up howling blast and gargoyle. Obliterate barely had any interaction with the spec.
it was when you used the sigil from 25 man XT02
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Ya. With that sigil you would spam oblit till you had max runes or km proc and just go nuts with frost strike. HB would be used on procs but that was the rotation.
Iām saying itās no longer a DW only spec. It is now also a 2h spec. If the design isnāt properly accommodating that then it needs to be reworked/rebalanced.
Iāll agree that a lot of the mechanics of the spec revolve around number of attacks, which favours DW. But they have done a pretty decent job balancing obliteration, only like 1% difference between DW/2h currently. Itās a shame that obliteration isnāt great for AoE and icecap and BoS just arenāt very good with 2h.
I think the new tier set is doing some good things by bringing more AoE to obliteration, and giving us an option for another rune weapon through GA procs. Needs to have better up time on RI though. Either make RI not have stacks, itās just a straight debuff with +15% frost dam that applies in one hit. Or increase the duration of it when applied by a 2h
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Itās always entertaining when you get yourself so worked up and arguing with so many people that you post one after the other. I think the experts would refer to that as delusional on some level.
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Frost today feels close to this but with way too much scaling to make dw superior. I feel like they would have a easier time just making it 2h but ppl want dw and I donāt think dw should go.
How would a new runeforge that applies RI and some other minor buff like FC does but itās for 2h
Most talents favor DW.
And yes, like I said earlier this is probably the best case scenario that they have had because they actually attempted to fix the actual issues between the weapons. You arent going to make up for the amount of attacks or crit mechanics though.
Cold Heart favors DW because of the 2 runeforges, Inexorable Assault favors DW because of 2 runeforges, Icy Talons with the 4 piece will favor DW because DW can keep it up through not only the use of Frost Strike but the Glacials generated by the 4pc which will just add more attacks and more KM procs. Runic Attenuation favors DW because more attacks, Murderous Effeciency favors DW because more KM procs, Horn of Winter favors neither. Avalanche Favors DW because of 2 runeforges, Frozen Pulse favors DW because more attacks and 2 runeforges. Frostscythe favors DW because 2 runeforges and it doesnt have an Obliterate steroid that basically reduces Frostscythes worth (the target cap hurt the ability the most).
I highly doubt people will be dropping RI.
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Quit trolling.
Well with the tier set they have shown weapons can have multiple runes so why not just unlock that ability for frost give us the option to put 2 runes on the weapons. And while at it why not have the weapon change to a ruin blade skin when we do put the runes on it.
I wish blizzard would make actual runeblades for us or at least give us skins for our weapons so that when we put a rune on them it changed the way they looked.
yep, youre right. All those talents favor DW. Which is why its important to change or rework them so that 2h and DW can be more even across the board and not just with 1 build. Probably requires more than just a few tuning of numbers and more of a rethink of how the spec/talents generate its power and procs.
this is no longer a DW spec, and should be tuned/designed accordingly
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What people really want is a damn 2h Dps DK without a pet. Thatās really it. A lot want DW. And thats ok. But I noticed how Blizzard pushed more and more scaling mechanics into frost to push DW and that was a lot of effort. Could have just gone and Have all 3 trees run DRW and add the ability to run a RF on it. Would have been simpler.
If you dont want 2h to just have one build MotFW has to go. Sorry, but you cant eat your cake and have it too.
And yes, like I said back in BFA when all this talk started, you basically have to make the weapons stat sticks with no impact on the play of the spec. And if thats the case why introduce 2h and just keep the spec and have a transmog option for 2h?
The reason why is simple, people want DW deleted. Its even been stated in this thread.
No matter what is suggested 2h people dont want to hear it or face the truth. So, remove 2h. If all people are going to do is ask for stuff and complain over a year that its not enough Blizzard shouldnt bother with it.
It is a DW spec, MotFW is a testament to that statement in that 2h needs all these band aids and there are already talent adjustments like with Runic Attenuation for 2h specifically. Its more work than its worth, it stifles creativity since you limit design choices since it has to be designed for both 2h and DW.
There were complaints in pre-patch about the spec, complaints when people got to 60, complaints when people were raiding, in pvp, in M+ and in 9.1 all mostly from a 2h standpoint.
Get rid of 2h, i mean people are trying to claim I keep saying it, I figure I might as well start to. Get rid of it. Its done nothing but take the argument away from the spec being good, and all about 2h being better than DW which is what the spec was designed around and still is.
Change my mind, anyone. But just saying 2h existed before will do nothing. You could DW as blood or unholy, but those were also created with 2h in mind and you lose out on too much where a second runeforge wouldnt help or a faster attack speed.
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The only thing that DW got from 3.0 until MoP was ToT. Thats it. Thats not a lot of effort. KM was based on auto attacks from the talent trees that I can find which are hard to find prior to 3.3.5. What it was usable on was different and Obliterate wasnt included. You used it on either Howling Blast or Icy Touch because you didnt go deep enough to get Frost Strike.
It was a spell spec, but what Blizzard noticed was that purely magic damage specs wouldnt scale well because Armor Pen wouldnt help at all and you would just rely on str to increase your damage. Thats the reason they started to change things and why they even changed Scourge Strike which was entirely shadow damage at the start. Frost did have some talents for Obliterate, but no real reason to use Obliterate since it didnt interact with anything really. Rime just increased its crit chance while the proc was triggered by Icy Touch. KM didnt interact with it at all.
They killed the hybrid build, added in ToT making it a strike spec instead of a pure spell spec, put Howling Blast at the bottom of the tree along with Gargoyle and then adding Obliterate into KM while removing Howling Blast and Icy Touch to where you would use it on Obliterate or Frost Strike.
They werent putting more and more scaling mechanics into frost to push DW. I dont know where you got that from, but its nowhere to be found in the development of the spec. The spec has been roughly the same since 3.2.
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if we have to drop one, it should be DW imo.
There is no objective reasoning behind that decision, people either like one or the other for whatever their view of class fatansy is. But because it is an RPG im all in support of creating a system that lets the player choose and build the character they want.
Im ok with that, if it serves the greater good of making 2h frost a well-balanced option for the spec. I wasnt around when the MotfFW came into discussion, but I assume the reason they wanted MotFW was they wanted big hard crits. You press a button and you see a massive chunk of damage. Thats what appealed to me when I played fDK in wotlk, although I vaguely remember my frost strikes being the big chonky hit. I dropped my DK when they took 2h frost away.
I would be ok with BoS being the DW build and obliteration being the 2h build, but the rest of the talent tree needs to allow some balance so that obliteration is still competitive in AoE. I think Rune weapons would be a really good way of creating balance between DW/2h by having rune wep enchants that only work on 2h or 1h.
Point is, people have different views on what they want the spec to be. Your opinion is that it should be a DW only spec, and a bunch of people disagree with you. There is no winning the argument because its just a matter of opinion.
This 2h DRW idea could actually been something. We wouldnāt have to worry about off hand scaling and the pain of getting another weapon to drop. Blizzard would have done better going that roughy possibly than the heavy dw rework in 3.2 and onward. Oblit would be the runic power generator for spells like frost strike. But maybe Iām just reminiscing. The 2h build worked so well my fellow guild members would joke about blizzard dropping the nerf hammer any day. Then 3.2 happened.
All of this is true. Frost strike was you big hitter. The crits the 2h build would produce were crazy. It honestly played a lot like the oblit build plays today but the km procs were for frost strike. Maybe blizzard should go back to fs being the km benefactor and oblit being the basic damage/ Rp generator. Hw would work the same. The whole frost tree is a dw tree argument is wrong and irrelevant. Blizzard try its best to make dw work and somehow made 2h work even better. I wonder why people donāt talk about the no disease build. It was way back in 3.1, but I never played through mop through bfa. So idk what it was like hands on.
Tot is stated as being added to make dw finally viable on wowwiki. Motfw was introduced to be the dps upgrade counterpart for 2h. Iām going to look into motfw and the reasons it was added.
For Shadowlands it was added so blizzard could tune 2h frost by increasing or decreasing its numbers.
There is objective reasoning as to why it should be DW only. Many many objective reasons. One being it was designed for DW. Suggesting for the entire spec to be redesigned because a select few like 2h and they dont like DW means that they dont like the spec and never have. Just because you had the choice to do it doesnt mean you should.
You could build 2h frost with a perma pet if you wanted to, where is that playstyle? You could not pick up Howling Blast, you could not pick up Frost Strike, you COULD do many things, but no one is talking about those. Its this weapon that is not intended for the spec. All the talents mostly favor DW, 2h needs bandaids to even be worthwhile to look at and people still want more more more.
āI want motfw, i want aoe as well, i want RI and FC, BoS should just be removed, DW should be removed because it gets in the way of me wanting to play 2h.ā To me that sounds like they dont like the spec and never liked the spec and they would rather screw over the many people that like the spec (people arent going to come on the forums and say they like something but there are some that do).
If you dont like the spec dont play it and people dont like the spec if you are asking for so many changes to it. If you are trying to change history then you should have no input at all.
NO, you shouldnt pigeonhole DW into using BoS, you cant just pigeonhole it into BoS because the talents were created for DW in mind, it is a DW spec no matter how much you want to say that its both now.
Is it really both? Ive seen nothing but complaints from anyone that plays 2h since they reintroduced it. I have yet to see any positives about it. So why keep it around? Seriously.
Even with the 4pc on the PTR, with dropping RI completely and just relying on GA, 2h was hit or miss. The only thing going for it, the only thing, is burst. The rest of it doesnt mesh well with the spec or the tier set. Ive had it be on par, and other times it be almost 1.5k dps behind. So with the tier set ive had 2h be as much as 20% behind. Same build and everything.
My opinion it that it should be a DW spec, because thats how it was designed. Its not because I like DW, or any of the other asinine things others have said my position was, its how it was designed. Blood was designed with a 2h weapon in mind, Unholy was designed for 2h as well. Arms was designed for 2h, you dont see me saying that it should be DW because its a superior weapon choice do you? No, its because Arms is a 2h spec.
Others dont like frost and that is why they want to change it from what it is. If you dont like the spec dont play it. Go play something else. I would like arcane to be some kind of battle mage, but im not there saying it should be changed or also include what I want it to be. It wasnt designed that way. Its like trying to change a motorcycle into some kind of hauling vehicle, it wasnt designed for that, and if you try to design it to haul stuff you no longer have a motorcycle and end up with a truck. Its not longer what it was. Or trying to make a car fly, it just turns into a plane that can fold up.
Frost should be DW because thats how it was designed and its how its still designed. Why have 2h?
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