The thing is a lot of people showed up in Darkshore who were from UC. if literally no NPCs die(Not even our weapons vendor died in Undercity.) on the Alliance side, then it robs the burning of Darnassus of all of it’s bite.
i imagine that it doesn’t matter who i saved or not.
it will not change who canonically survives.
Maybe.
This is the heart of my argument.
The npcs, who you saved, who you didn’t – who we killed, who we didn’t don’t matter because Blizzard puts absolutely no cement to the act. they weren’t characters, they were fodder. And nothing proves that more than how Blizzard handles who you saved.
Blizzard almost pioneered phasing. They can phase npcs to you without phasing you out from players. They could’ve kept track of who you saved.
They decided it was unimportant.
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That is because many things ingame isn’t actually what happens in canon.
I mean even in the quest itself, the event is robbed of it’s bite by the fact one of the Gilneans literally goes ‘This is fine.’ while in a tophat drinking tea inside the city. That tonal shift is jarring, but it tells a lot about how they feel about that event, that even then it wasn’t treated seriously.
You guys remember memes?
I remember memes.
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Why do you think that? The names of the npcs who survive aren’t important to the greater plot. They don’t have to show up in Chronicle 5. It can be “The Alliance Champion saved as many night elves as they could.” while also phasing the npcs you DID save, for you.
Yeah that seems super offputting.
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-I actually think the Rastakan is a legitimate military target.
-I don’t think Dazar’alor is “suitable revenge”.
-But then, “revenge” is a dark motivation and becomes evil when you demand it against people who weren’t involved in what you want revenge for. That is why it is a villain trope.
So two things.
Not only has the Horde’s story robbed us of a beloved zone, that was a hub for Kaldorei RPers, and was perhaps the most important aspect of the Nelf story between Vanilla and Cata (One can argue that the cleansing of Teldrassil was the main facet of the Nelf story at that time), but the Horde also dealt an emotional blow to the Kaldorei community, as it’s been a long-standing complaint that the Kaldorei have not only been improperly represented and depicted, but are also the go-to scapegoat for Blizzard’s Alliance side story telling.
So you can’t say that the Undercity noe Dazar’alor is a fitting or appropriate “payback” for Teldrassil. The Emotional distress of Alliance players right now is directly attributed to the Horde, where as the Emotional distress of Horde Players seems to be attributed to the narrative as a whole.
So now, the Alliance WANTS a resolution. We have been emotionally captured by the War of Thorns, and we WANT some kind of pay off. So moment where we can see Tyrande or Malfurion actually deliver a blow to the Horde that is Emotionally significant. Undercity was not that, Dazar’alor had nothing to do with War of Thorns, and Nathanos momentarily stalemates in Darkshore, which is a territory the Horde doesn’t even need at this point.
And we have Horde players who don’t even like the state the Horde is in right now, still actively fighting against ANY and ALL conceived notions that the Alliance, Night Elves in particular, deserve a feel good moment that is significant to them and their loss.
It’s like the Horde thought process is “I know the Horde’s actions have been dishonorable, and Sylvanas needs to answer for her Crimes… But I hate the Alliance, so screw them.”
Its outright maliciousness.
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The problem is the narrative treats it as parity, at this point two things have been done to the Horde to bring equilibrium: Undercity which failed to do that, and Dazar’alor which has also failed to do that, but at this point the Horde doesn’t want to lose more because we’ve already lost major things to failed parity. So whats the solution? give the Night Elves another win while letting the Horde get revenge for those two things the Alliance wasn’t satisfied with?
At some point the madness has to end, or we’ll wind up cycling through everything the Horde owns just to make that one aspect of the Alliance feel good. I don’t like it, but there’s not a sane alternative.
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I am not sure if I like this theory, but there is something fishy about the End Time Dungeon, with Jaina, Tyrande, Sylvanas and Baine all being boss, who are also major players in the narrative.
I think we could see a Tyrande Vs Sylvanas, and Jaina vs Baine scenario that is going to lead us down a whirlpool of destruction that will ultimately play into N’zoth’s hands and bring about the Hour of Twilight.
I think something regarding Derek is going to pit Jaina and Baine against eachother, If that happens, I think my theory is pretty on-target.
I agree. But even if you think the Alliance didn’t defeat the Horde at Lordaeron, the Forsaken are suffering the same problem.
I agree with this too. This sucks for you guys because you feel misrepresented. It sucks for us, because we didn’t want to raid Teldrassil.
That said… do you disagree that the Forsaken exist as one note Sylvanas minions? They seem pretty mischaracterized too, especially for allegedly being a race who resents slavery because of what they’ve been through.
Why is yours not directed at the narrative? Even in the story, no one really wanted to attack Teldrassil. Sylvanas does it to start a war that will lead to Stormwind’s raising. Saurfang does it because he’s conned by Sylvanas due to Greymane. But neither character’s first thoughts are 'man, Teldrassil has to go.'
Blizzard did as Blizzard does, to the detriment of everyone.
I mentioned earlier the powerlessness is something that makes sense to be angry about, and Teldrassil deals that in spades. But we felt powerless at Lordaeron. Sylvanas’s smirkfu didn’t wash that away. Just because Blizzard says ‘Horde won Lordaeron’ doesn’t mean your average Horde player feels that way. You speak of the emotional weight that the Alliance players bear. Well, the Horde has some, too.
Alright, so correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re saying that the revenge has to be dealt by a Kal’dorei. It isn’t enough to be dealt by another member of the Alliance?
I don’t know what to say here. I doubt that it’s enough for you, and it certainly wouldn’t be for me, but I think the cutscenes with Malfurion, the books, all of the Darkshore stuff are what you’re going to get. They might raid Ashenvale, I don’t know, but I doubt you’ll see much more than that before Azshara shows up.
That’s because, for all of your mentioning of the emotional burden that night elf players carry, you’re being callous about the Horde’s. You lost for like, what, a patch? We’ve been losing since the very same patch and haven’t stopped ever since. Every single zone we complete ends with a loss. We think we do some good in the war campaign? It’s a loss.
And that isn’t even going into how the Alliance team paints the Horde!
I just don’t know how to solve your problems in a fair and equitable manner to both factions. Despite the night elves having suffered in the beginning, the Alliance has been winning super hard and super far ever since. And don’t you dare deny it. Incase you forgot, I main Alliance.
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Treng’s main: Present.
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The problem is when Alliance posters ignore or mock Horde posters for complaining about a story that has given most absolutely nothing. Then, because the Alliance story (which made them the heroes of the story) didn’t give them “enough” (wins were enough, revenge was “enough”, etc.) demand to be seen as the real victims to the point where the term “Horde bias” gets used.
So you have Horde players seeing Alliance players demand a plot which screws Horde players over even more, so Alliance players (who have a plot I would trade for in a heart_beat) can get a better one.
And yes, this does cause an emotional response in some (which is then used to paint every Horde players).
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I…actually would not mind that. If Tyrande got her revenge on Sylvanas, but something with Baine and Jaina that would allow us to get back to some kind of equal footing. one of the biggest complaints with Baine is that he’s not pro horde enough, so maybe there’s something that could align them more tightly.
I’m not against the Night Elves getting revenge, hell i’m not even against Sylvanas dying for the sake of that revenge, I just worry about the health of the Horde(And the status of Undercity.) after.
That’s all.
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Sylvanas has always characterized Forsaken as “Arrows in her Quiver.”
Honestly, because Sylvanas’ actions in War of Thorns is not beyond the realm of possibility for us. From an Alliance perspective, that’s all pretty in-character. Sure, I have issues with exactly how it played out, but the point is that I think BfA is more realistics from the eyes of the Alliance, than it is for the Horde… And that might be because the Horde has always had a duality between Thrall’s Shamanistic Goddness, and the Shadow of the Old Horde, with Sylvanas always been characteristically evil.
It wouldn’t be horrible… I’d just be pretty bummed if Tyrande and Jaina die… Which, I think the End Time Prophecy implies that all 4 of those characters do after their actions bring about the end of the world.
Edit: I somewhat like Baine too, so him dying would be a bummer.
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I mean believe it or not, I kind of like Night Warrior Tyrande. I…like current Jaina less, but I was a big fan of her character arc from the end of Cata throughout MoP.
I don’t think all those characters should die, I acknowledge that Sylvanas has become problematic for the story though. A lot of the arguing I do I try not to come from a place of malice, but to try and puzzle out where a good course for the Horde would go. I’m so defensive about it because, narratively speaking, it just seems like our path is very unclear.
The “parity” is unrealistic. Real parity would be the Alliance committing an evil atrocity. It would be Jaina deciding to to destroy Thunder Bluff while saying something like that was for the Horde monsters who got away in Orgimmar. Then Bain then leads the destruction of Kul’tiras while the plot makes it clear the Jaina brought that on herself.
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The best retribution Night Elves can get is Sylvana’s head. Other than that will just be bones thrown at us to try to give us any sense of clousure.
I don’t care about Zaldalari, they were not part of the invading force at Ashevale/Darkshore so why would I be happy to see their city raided and their king slain while Sylvanas and her crazy cult still plot the next war?
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Haven’t been able to post in here much because of work. But while I’m on my break I just want to say I’d trade Horde story for Alliance story in a heart beat. I’ll gladly be the villain and light a bunch of orc civilians on fire. Literally anything would be better than what Night Elves have gotten since Vanilla. Which is being nothing more than a pedestal for Humans to be propped up on because “Human Potential” and slaughter fodder for the Horde. The only time it’s not one of those two all we get is “Hey remember when Highborne did a Sunder? That was neat right?” Even though no Kaldorei today would look back at that time and be proud.
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Well, if only we can get Blizzard to listen then. Turn Tyrande into an evil monsters and hit the Alliance with the villain bat, while the Horde are the heroes of Azeroth.
It would save a Horde narrative that I’m not sure, given any reasonable path, that keeps me sometimes stopping playing WOW.