If you’re talking about Alterac Valley, that was started by a messy slaughter of archaeologists. If this is about Bael Modan, everyone in Kalimdor was expanding every which way. To the point the Horde is just as much colonist attacking the Quillboar.
Oh I know what they are doing, having said that, both sides in Kalimdor have no totally de-escalated to the point there are still Horde in Ashenvale. Also, making it the effort of certain group still means it just that, certain group of the Alliance and for the most part means the rest of the Alliance is not actually culpable. Any more then rogue elements of the Horde doing crazy stuff.
My main criticism is the Alliance would actually go out of its way to attack a third party and go on on a slaughter. Again, not something most of the Alliance condones.
Point is Alliance was expansionist too in vanilla. You have confirmed it yourself and so if Alliance becomes expansionist again it wont be out of character
The Alliance were expansionist in Vanilla because Theramore at the time was still being built. No one’s borders were particularly set in stone.
The rest of the Alliance(as mentioned in Wolfheart) are relatively established kingdoms that do not particularly want more land and is more interested in protecting what it already had. The only potential exception being Lordearon for obvious reasons.
At the end of the day, the Alliance does not want what the Horde has and most Horde land is generally worse off then Alliance land anyway.
Anduin: But, but if I slap the Horde on the wrist too hard, it would hurt them, and that is wrong!.. (his eyes grow moist with tears) (notices an orc grunt standing next to a woodchipper, who inbetween bouts of just staring off into space drooling, will grab one of the Innocent Alliance Children frolicking at his foot and stuff them into the machine.) You there! Cut it out with all that naughtiness!
Orc Grunt: Me sorry! (spits out rock it was chewing on)
Okay, so it’s much more complex than all that, but Strawmaning is easier, and funnier.
And that is why they shouldn’t be part of the Alliance.
It is not fair to the fans of those races. When the faction identity does not properly represent them. When the story is faction focused, it feels ostracizing at best, and at worst, an outright incorrect portrayal of their racial identity.
Like it or not, Warcraft 3 is long behind us and the night elves had to be part of the one of the two factions. That is just how WoW was built, and between the Horde and the Alliance, morally and thematically it was closer to the Alliance, not to mention the drama of having a non-Horde nation in Kalimdor while the Forsaken being the non-Alliance one in EK.
I’d also point out, it is not correct to think the night elves don’t share alot of traits with the Alliance. Again, it was an 1) established nation that cared more about its protection 2) generally speaking is probably as dogmatic/stoic as many Alliance race.
it was an attempt by Blizzard to expand what the Alliance is, that even if it doesn’t surface wise look the same, the values of the Alliance as a whole and the night elves are.
Proud and noble, courageous and wise, these races work together to preserve order in Azeroth The Alliance is driven by honor and tradition. Its rulers are champions of justice, hope, knowledge, and faith.
All those values can be directed attributed to night elves.
Misunderstood and cast aside, these diverse and powerful races strive to overcome their differences and unite as one in order to win freedom for their people and prosper in a land that has come to hate them.
In the Horde, action and strength are valued above diplomacy, and its leaders earn respect by the blade, wasting no time with politics.
Can you really tell me that sounds like the night elves?
They really didn’t. The choice to put the Night Elves and Forsaken in the factions was a gameplay choice, not a narrative or world building choice. Perhaps limited by the technology of the day, or perhaps just a design that did not consider long lasting effects on the lore.
Regardless, it was a mistake. And I do not need to just shrug it off and pretend like it wasn’t.
I mean, it’s a salad of adjectives that have no real meaning. It can just as easily to attributed to the values of the Horde.
Same thing here. Considering the Night Elves have a history of attacking first and talking later. “Action and Strength are valued above diplomacy” makes sense.
It was both a gameplay(there was only ever going to be two factions in WoW) and narrative one. Narrative being that with these two at the opposite continent of their chosen factions mean it was rife for faction conflict. Hence, two of the three battlegrounds initially were centered around these two races.
It was not a mistake. And while the execution was badly handled for SL/BfA, the locations of these two have sparked the reason why we even have factions conflicts in the first place and is central to many of the events of the game.
Except the night elves are not “missundersood or outcast”. No one particularly “hates them”(which is a perfect discription of forsaken, hence why they were better in the Horde).
They did it one time with the Horde/Alliance with a very different set of circumstances. And even then it can be argued the night elves did give a warning to the Horde/was still not that interested in some sort of strength competition and just wanted them out of their lands.
Outright not true. Originally, Night Elves were going to be a Nuetral race, and Forsaken were outright going to be hostile to everyone. Hell, originally, Night Elves were not even going to be playable in the base game. Blood Elves were originally considered.
They abandoned this idea for the sake of a more structured set up, but the decision was entirely for the sake of gameplay, not preestablished lore. In fact, they changed the lore just to make room for gameplay aspects. Like Nelf gender roles.
Easy for you to say, someone who doesn’t play these races at all.
As some who has been a popular figure in the Night Elf RP community for years. A vast majority of Nelf players who care about the lore think it was a mistake.
That is a matter of perspective. I am pretty sure the orcs hate them. If they had joined the Horde, they would have to “Strive to overcome their differences and unite as one”
Not that it matters, the Night Elves should be in neither faction.
And since then, they have been slowly declawing the Night Elves, pushing them further and further from their more barbaric sides. Something the vast majority of Night Elf players DO NOT WANT.
That is the crux of the issue. The Night Elves are not represented by the values of the Alliance, nor the Horde. They are somewhere in the middle. Which sucks because more than any other race, they are the most severely impacted by the faction war.
It’s like getting shot as a bystander because two powdered wigged nerds were dueling 50 feet to your left.
Lets say this way true(I don’t have the time/energy to research all this right now). That still doesnt change the fact the game was ultimately built up with the night elves/forsaken being an important part of the faction conflict. Which is something Blizzard realize was important for the game.
Ultimately, the lore that the night elves would be relatively hostile to the orcs(who did just kill one of their demi gods) and be closer to the Alliance(the faction that at the time was lead by a woman) is actually quite reasonable.
You do realize I do have other characters besides Zerde. Not to mention as a draenei, the night elven zones were one of the first I truly explored. (because I was not going to the run of death to get to Stormwind/Ironforge!)
Alos, night elves fans are not the only fans and regardless of their feelings, the Warcraft universe needed the faction conflict to remain interesting. And I suspect we will someday have a faction conflict again but probably not for a while(I give it a decade or so, so about 4-5 expansions from now). And ultimately having these two factions be in the Horde/Alliance was right for the game from a story telling prespective.
And yet they are not, and for as long as WoW last probably never will be. If at all.
Look, I get you want to be your own faction again, but this is not likely to ever happen. and between the Alliance and Horde, the Alliance was always going to be the clear pick.
Theramore was already built and the dwarves expanding had nothing to do with Theramore. The dwarves were not settling the land to farm and colonise, they were exploiting the land for resources and knowledge.
Um ok…? That still doesn’t stop the Alliance from telling themselves
"you know what would be useful? A giant fortress and giant walls to keep the knuckle dragging savages that attack us every 2 months a big hurdle to pass through.
You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding on what is being discussed here.
Alliance could be happy with the current territories it holds but that doesn’t stop them from expanding into neutral or enemy territory to thwart attacks and create buffer lines so Saurfang and the Horde wont just waltz into the heart of Alliance territory by literally walking through the main road with zero opposition.
Tell me you don’t understand what you are talking about without telling me you don’t understand what you are talking about.
Except it is not the Night Elves who are hostile to the orcs, it is the orcs who are hostile to the Night Elves.
Considering the Night Elves and the Orcs just united to defeat the burning Legion, it is not reasonable they would be hostile to each other, if they were just minding their own business.
But Blizzard forced a shotty narrative to force homogenization of the races into the faction conflict.
You are not a Nelf player and do not pretend that you are.
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Right. Here to gloat about it? Do you take pleasure knowing that Nelf fans are stuck in a faction they do not feel represented in? Forced to watch the racial identity of their favorite race slowly disintegrate? Does it bring you pleasure?
I know me and aki rarely see eye to eye on things(I’m honestly trying to do better at fighting for things I find worthy of my time) but on this, I do agree with her. Like it or not, thematically the worgen, night elves and forsaken do not fit their respective factions.
The worgen and night elves alone have proven they’re capable of handling their own problems when the need arises.
in my hypothetical “What if WoW had four factions instead of just two” idea, the Forsaken, Blood Elves, and Worgen would form their own ‘Cursed, Edgy Faction’, opposing the Night Elf/Tauren/Draenei ‘Good and Natural Faction’
The worgen were meant to be the alliances vicious race. It’s long overdue that blizz give the worgen their fangs and let them do what werewolves naturally do, and that’s hunt and kill others
yeah, thats the reason i said "one extreme the worgen, the other extreme the tauren and the night elf between as balancing factor and its even representative for the races aswell…
Actually a really interesting idea. If Gilneas, instead of being invaded by the Forsaken, had slowly warmed up to the Forsaken via trade and the culture sharing that comes with that…
Imagine a quest of a Gilnean who lost their SO to a Worgen attack, or disease or something. And in their desperation, literally asks Sylvanas to bring them back because they “Can’t bear to live without them”
A great opportunity to ask an in-world moral question while also giving the player some agency. Rather than a typical fetch quest, let the players intervention be the deciding factor that determined the resolution of the quest.
Bael modan was built during the roughly 4 years of peace between Warcraft 3-WoW Vanilla, everyone was expanding at the time, including Theramore, hence how it got Northwatch. Which move the next point.
Except that is exactly what was happening. The Alliance retook Stromgarde, both because it was old Alliance territory and because it does make a powerful choke point for Horde aggression. Varian wanted to rebuild Theramore and at least make it a Garrison, heck he wanted to watch over Sylvanas’ actions. But what I can only guess is due to other pressing problems(Iron Horde/Legion) that never happened and we ended up with BfA.
I am telling you why the Alliance is not interested in most Horde territory. and even purely for defensive purposes there are better place to set up shop then near the Barrens. If possible.
WoW has lasted this long. I would say they were vindicated by their decisions.
This is Warcraft, someone always ends up pissed with someone else, and considering the night elves had the one thing the orcs would want, resources, there were always going to be problems.
You’re right, I am Alliance player, and like it or not the night elves are Alliance. Which means I do care and if the old forums were still around you would find I’d be one of the first to defend alot of Tyrande’s decisions against the Horde.
When your being totally unreasonable it does. Look your racial identity is not gone. I didn’t particularly care for the night elves to be in the Alliance initially but it is what it is and either learn to live(like I have, hell I have even learn to like alot of them about them) with it or remain miserable for as long as WoW exist. Your choice.
