Cyclone is kinda busted

[Fergh-tichondrius]

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

You know boomy completely dominated the entirety of the awc and won the NA Finals right? Even after all the nerfs boomy got? Anyone arguing that boomy isn’t insane is wild.

There were MANY other specs and teams that didn’t include a boomy that also competed in the AWC. You know an outlaw rogue and preservation evoker also won AWC finals too right? Would you say they’re both busted S+ tier specs? Just because the best players in the world play it in the AWC doesn’t reflect it’s overall strength in the ladder. And for the record I’m not saying Boomy isn’t strong. I’m saying your proposed changes of making clone dispellable or a 15s cooldown would ruin the spec.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

There are more ferals than rogues over 2800 in 3’s right now. Feral is doing just fine. Only bad ferals are struggling.

That’s because they’re playing with casters which help to enable a spam clone and abuse Wild Attunement playstyle - once again reiterating that it isn’t clone as much as it is that PVP talent that’s the real strength.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

Wait so your saying spam cloning all game isn’t a fun playstyle? I wonder who here has been saying that this entire time?

I never said casting and working around cyclone isn’t fun, I literally said in my post that ferals would probably prefer more healing and suriviability in place of Wild Attunement

[Gleyeardorix-area-52]

@Fergh-tichondrius

There were MANY other specs and teams that didn’t include a boomy that also competed in the AWC. You know an outlaw rogue and preservation evoker also won AWC finals too right? Would you say they’re both busted S+ tier specs? Just because the best players in the world play it in the AWC doesn’t reflect it’s overall strength in the ladder. And for the record I’m not saying Boomy isn’t strong. I’m saying your proposed changes of making clone dispellable or a 15s cooldown would ruin the spec.

Throughout the entire season of awc boomy was without a doubt the best spec in the game. Winning every single eu cup and most of the na cups. It was nerfed countless times but was still strong enough to win the na finals. And is as strong as it was when it did. I’m not saying boomy is S+ tier right now, but it’s definitely still very strong right now and the main proponent of that is cyclone. The spec being completely balanced around being able to spam the best cc in the game isn’t a good thing.

@Fergh-tichondrius

That’s because they’re playing with casters which help to enable a spam clone and abuse Wild Attunement playstyle - once again reiterating that it isn’t clone as much as it is that PVP talent that’s the real strength.

How does the comp they play mean anything for it’s viability? If the spec works in a comp it works. Also some are playing jungle.

[Fergh-tichondrius]

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

As for playstyle do you not see the problem where a boomy can easily land 20 clones in a 2 minute game while getting interrupted on 10 of them and still doing as much/ more damage than every other spec in the game?

No I don’t see a problem when it’s their primary source of utility and defensives capability - many other classes also top the damage charts while using the full extent of their utility and defensive capability…

And considering the damage, most of it is 2 dots that can also passively spread to nearby minions and pets. I think you’ll find most dot/cleave specs (especially those that don’t have an MS) perform the same. (Our current 2 set gives 20% extra damage to sunfire, moonfire, and shooting stars by the way which is going away next season - so there goes a lot of the damage on the meters that you’re seeing).

[Gleyeardorix-area-52]

@Fergh-tichondrius

No I don’t see a problem when it’s their primary source of utility and defensives capability - many other classes also top the damage charts while using the full extent of their utility and defensive capability…

It’s not? Boomy is passively more tanky than most specs in the game. And also has roots, beam, and either stun or disorienting roar.

[Amyrii-echo-isles]

@Remi-tichondrius

my only real complaint with cyclone atm is boomkin
there’s almost 0 drawback, damage loss, or (most of the time) risk playing super pushed in just going through every stop (either the right way OR the wrong way tbh) and just oppressing with cyclone

They’ve already nerfed boomkins plenty this season. Just admit you don’t want a fair fight and want to bulldoze the moonkin

[Fergh-tichondrius]

Beam? 1 minute CD - we can talk about how much more frequently other casters like mage, lock, shaman, and evoker, even hunter can interrupt.

Roots? 30s CD for instant roots that are often used in conjunction with Beam above(and can be completely negated and played around by MANY different classes) - once again many other ranged specs have roots or even slows that they can use much more frequently.

Bash? 50s cd melee range. - we can talk about how other casters have a more frequent stun that can be used from range and in some cases AOE (priest, shaman, evoker, lock (especially demo), hunter)

Also, clone is used from a much closer range than all of the above’s cc which makes it more susceptible to getting interrupted while being blasted by melee – hence the armor and tankiness - and boomy doesn’t have port/blink/immunities/coil/etc. and other tools to shut down melee damage completely when hit.

I don’t want to get in the weeds with individual spell comparisons but you have to consider the overall kit of a spec and associated caveats and drawbacks when throwing out strengths of the spec and why they are strong or weak in certain areas over others. It’s useless and unproductive to just list out a couple of spells in a vacuum and call that your conclusion.

[Flapz-illidan]

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

The best thing to compare cyclone to are stuns. They are very similar in nature

tf?
Like I thought you were being VERY broad but you continue to try and make parallels between them. You understand being able to hit into a stun is like… the most different that type of cc could possibly be yeah? lol. And being instant to boot.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

And even that isn’t a counter because high winds is in the game.

Nerfed a million times and the first talent to be removed if literally anything else makes sense in the matchup. Wasn’t even taken every game back when it was busted, including last expansion. Very shadow of its former self.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

I don’t really understand this one? Hoj and kidney have been the same duration for what like 10 years? And they still are?

…hmm have they though? Clone has also existed in the same capacity for a loooong time my man. Careful.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

Also the reason fear was reduced to 6 seconds was because it didn’t break on damage as easily as every other cc in the game

Personal anecdote or… do you just like making your own point with made up facts?

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

As for playstyle do you not see the problem where a boomy can easily land 20 clones in a 2 minute game while getting interrupted on 10 of them and still doing as much/ more damage than every other spec in the game?

Very obviously hyperbole and thus doesn’t help your case.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

Wait so your saying spam cloning all game isn’t a fun playstyle? I wonder who here has been saying that this entire time?

To be fair, you said it wasn’t fun to fight against, not to play

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

How exactly does boomy getting cloned open them up to getting killed? They can still use a number of their defensive tools like bear, bash if they have it, I think even frenzied.

Bear lol. Yes they can use their frenzy when kicked but not skin or renewal. They can definitely get punished for it. Frenzy is… neutered. Boomy does some of the lowest healing in the game across all dps specs. Which is sad considering it’s literally how it stays alive aside from running and… cyclone.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

Even though they could use said cyclone to then extend cc onto someone else on the team and choose when to hit the low target? You cyclone dps low, then cyclone healer since there’s 1 less stop to deal with and the dps is stuck there low with healer in cc.

Yeah perfect world I agree. Doesn’t always work that way of course. I’d say more often than not it doesn’t to be honest.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

Throughout the entire season of awc boomy was without a doubt the best spec in the game. Winning every single eu cup

Eh… I don’t know. But regardless to be fair, the same team completely and utterly dominates EU every single time. Hard to use that for proof. When people stopped playing boomy the same winning teams kept winning. In both regions.

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

It’s not? Boomy is passively more tanky than most specs in the game. And also has roots, beam, and either stun or disorienting roar.

It absolutely is and let’s not pretend otherwise. Please. Locks can not fear at all in games and still defensively be the same most of the time. If you took clone away from boomy it was completely die every single time anyone played it.

I don’t know how having more armor makes them “passively” tanky compared to most specs. It definitely helps vs the few physical specs but that’s fried. And c’mon man, roots? Bram is a defensive? A one minute kick? lol. Grasping hard.

Look man you said it yourself, boomy is mostly good because of clone. That’s true. You also made it a point to mention spells have remain unchanged for a while and clone is one of them. It’s been spammable forever in the same capacity. It never used to be talked about much, why now? Because poly and fear are shorter lengths? Is that what we’re going with? Or “all cc was adjusted and reduced!” “All” cc wasn’t actually. Many in fact went up relative to trinket reduction status. And by many I mean literally more than half (barely but, yeah).

Want clone to be like 5s? Sure. Anything beyond that and it’s a hard no. Unless you’re literally proposing a massive overhaul and rework. If so, I’d be very curious because we’d need significant defensive help and something to make us desirable.

[Gleyeardorix-area-52]

@Flapz-illidan

Like I thought you were being VERY broad but you continue to try and make parallels between them. You understand being able to hit into a stun is like… the most different that type of cc could possibly be yeah? lol. And being instant to boot.

If you think of them in the way where both are cc’s that cannot be dispelled. When used as cc not on kill target they operate practically the same way.

@Flapz-illidan

…hmm have they though? Clone has also existed in the same capacity for a loooong time my man. Careful.

Your right it’s existed in the same capacity that it’s been for ever, while practically every other cc in the game was nerfed this season.

@Flapz-illidan

Very obviously hyperbole and thus doesn’t help your case.

Against r1 boomies it’s the standard.

@Flapz-illidan

Bear lol. Yes they can use their frenzy when kicked but not skin or renewal. They can definitely get punished for it. Frenzy is… neutered. Boomy does some of the lowest healing in the game across all dps specs. Which is sad considering it’s literally how it stays alive aside from running and… cyclone.

It doesn’t really need that much to stay alive, the spec is passively tanky. But yeah if they nerf cyclone obviously they’d need to buff it’s healing. But having cyclone be it’s #1 defensive option isn’t good. In a meta where it’s impossible to land clone the spec is useless which is why they created owlkin which was insanely broken for a while. And currently they really aren’t punished for it, it’s a 3 second lockout and they can still use mobility options to get away or if on the offensive can still use half of their damage abilities.

@Flapz-illidan

When people stopped playing boomy the same winning teams kept winning. In both regions.

The only team that stopped playing boomy was echo and I guess gg. In eu the second place team played boomy in most of their games. In na 3 of the top 4 teams played boomy at some point in the tournament. It wasn’t even 1 single comp that it did well in, it had 3.

@Flapz-illidan

It absolutely is and let’s not pretend otherwise. Please. Locks can not fear at all in games and still defensively be the same most of the time. If you took clone away from boomy it was completely die every single time anyone played it.

@Flapz-illidan

I don’t know how having more armor makes them “passively” tanky compared to most specs. It definitely helps vs the few physical specs but that’s fried. And c’mon man, roots? Bram is a defensive? A one minute kick? lol. Grasping hard.

He said boomy didn’t have any tools in general other than clone not specifically defensively. I was just stating beam is a pretty strong tool that a lot of teams don’t have a way to mitigate.

@Flapz-illidan

Look man you said it yourself, boomy is mostly good because of clone. That’s true. You also made it a point to mention spells have remain unchanged for a while and clone is one of them. It’s been spammable forever in the same capacity. It never used to be talked about much, why now? Because poly and fear are shorter lengths? Is that what we’re going with? Or “all cc was adjusted and reduced!” “All” cc wasn’t actually. Many in fact went up relative to trinket reduction status. And by many I mean literally more than half (barely but, yeah).

The reason it’s a problem right now is there’s no real punishment for just sitting there and spamming it. Lockouts have been reduced so much that the play half the time is just cast it, not care if you get kicked and if you do get kicked just do it again 3 seconds later. That long with the addition of precog makes the ability too powerful. If they reverted all the cc changes and got rid of precog cyclone would be completely fine no problems but with how the current game is the spell is too strong.

@Flapz-illidan

Want clone to be like 5s? Sure. Anything beyond that and it’s a hard no. Unless you’re literally proposing a massive overhaul and rework. If so, I’d be very curious because we’d need significant defensive help and something to make us desirable.

I’ve said in most of my posts that it needs some kind of rework to push it away from the cyclone spam playstyle.

[Drdoomkin-area-52]

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

It doesn’t really need that much to stay alive, the spec is passively tanky.

name 1 way the spec is passively tanky?
because we have less armor then ele shams and ele shams get rocked by meeles still
barkskin is 20% and people hit 200ks
i pop Heart of the wild 2 frenzis and get my frenzi proc and sporecloak and still die
so tell me how am i tanky?

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

He said boomy didn’t have any tools in general other than clone not specifically defensively. I was just stating beam is a pretty strong tool that a lot of teams don’t have a way to mitigate.

almost every healer is immune to root beam right now
or they play a comp that gets them out of root beam
i have used root beam as a kick pretty much all season

moonkin also hits like a wet noodle right now after all the nerfs average starsurge per game is 45-50k

[Remi-tichondrius]

@Drdoomkin-area-52

name 1 way the spec is passively tanky?
because we have less armor then ele shams and ele shams get rocked by meeles still

boomkin has like 12k armor

my avg stormstrike on a boomkin is like 7-9k less than it is on even warriors

boomkin takes almost 0 physical damage it unironically impossible for a moonkin to die to a physical dps outside of extreme scenarios like ascendance proc or every ww modifier for 8 seconds

[Drdoomkin-area-52]

@Remi-tichondrius

boomkin has like 12k armor

so where are you getting this random number from because you are WAY WAY off
because 450 pvp ilvl we have 9092

my hunter 450 ilvl has 5800 23%
450 ivll boomkin 31%
warrior 450 ilvl 10.3k armor 34%

@Remi-tichondrius

my avg stormstrike on a boomkin is like 7-9k less than it is on even warriors

[Amyrii-echo-isles]

@Gleyeardorix-area-52

It doesn’t really need that much to stay alive, the spec is passively tanky. But yeah if they nerf cyclone obviously they’d need to buff it’s healing. But having cyclone be it’s #1 defensive option isn’t good. In a meta where it’s impossible to land clone the spec is useless which is why they created owlkin which was insanely broken for a while. And currently they really aren’t punished for it, it’s a 3 second lockout and they can still use mobility options to get away or if on the offensive can still use half of their damage abilities.

Cyclone is more than just a defensive. It’s the bread and butter of druid gameplay since BC.

[Malakor-thrall]

Shouldnt we move past that though… All of the druids in here don’t want change because the spell in and of itself is just too good. It can easily be spammed and rotated and without counterplay (which I mentioned is almost non existent unless you do land a kick or MD… which will l likely be met with another clone on you in 3 seconds or somebody else on your team anyway). It just lets you shut down an individual way to hard. Again I don’t care too much for moonkin having it and to a lesser extent feral but the issue is with resto being able to keep everybody hotted the trees just keeping their whole team alive etc.

[Drdoomkin-area-52]

im fine with the spell being changed but moonkin needs to do actual dmg outside useless padd dmg with dots

[Malakor-thrall]

Do you not like the full moon playstyle I’ve seen it hit over 200k+. Again I’m all for changing the spell and giving you guys more options I just want to be able to do something about it on a class thats not a priest that has to use MD. Theres games where a shaman lands a hex on me and we don’t have a decurse but its not nearly as punishing as when a druid catches you in a bad spot and lands a bash clone clone clone…

Again I don’t mind it too much on moonkin my issue is how resto can abuse it with the trees and hots while keeping their entire team alive even if they get locked out of nature…

[Amyrii-echo-isles]

@Malakor-thrall

Shouldnt we move past that though…

Absolutely not. People on these forums don’t know what they want. One moment they’re complaining about dampening because of cc nerfs and now they want cyclone nerfs. Nobody complained or talked about resto Druids until the treants were added. The problem isn’t cyclone and moonkins/ferals would have to be completely redesigned and stripped of their identity to be homogenized into a worse version of any other spec.

[Drdoomkin-area-52]

full moon was never viable at a high end pvp outside fishing for precogs
full moon was easily counterable by healer pressing dispel on our dots on the target it was going to hit dispeling moonkin dots redueced full moons dmg by 40-50% depending on how much mastery they had

and yeah trees are pretty unfun i wait for them to pop 2-3 of them then root beam the trees over root beaming sum other dps

[Malakor-thrall]

So maybe I’ve gone about this the wrong way. Should I say Cyclone is fine but the fact that resto druid can keep their entire team alive with their current toolkit and not be punished for spamming it on me and the rest of my team is what the actual problem is?

[Gloamdream-cenarius]

cyclone is too strong.
My biggest grief isn’t so much that it can’t be dispelled (which is annoying), but more so the fact that I can’t heal a cyclone target or heal at all when i’m cycloned. Dunno what it’s like for other heal classes, but for preservation Evoker cyclones really screw my heal game. My strongest heals get completely wasted because of cyclone. Like at the very least the cyclone shouldn’t be eating heals, it should simply not allow a person to heal that target (instead of wasting all those heals before realizing the target has been cycloned).

Blizz clearly has a hard on for druids.

[Drdoomkin-area-52]

TBH rdruid just needs a rework at this point their mastery their hots