This is THE topic for BFA. There is a gaping whole in the middle of the player base when it comes to rewarding content.
Those that are not looking to push Heroic Raids, Mythic+, Rated BG’s or Rated Arena’s are getting plenty of gear (arguably too much) and more or less have a clear progression path.
Those that are pushing Mythic Raids, 10+ Mythic + etc. also have a clear progression path.
The rest of us (I would argue majority) that live in Normal/Heroic Raiding, Mythic + levels 2-9, and lower levels of competitive PvP, are finding it much easier to acquire gear outside of those activities. Since we are somewhat competitive, they become compulsory to keep up (with our raid mates, dungeon mates or pvp competitors).
So that by the time we participate in those activities we already outgear the rewards. We have no reasonable progression outside of hoping for a titanforge/warforge.
Is that not logical? That a player that has done more in terms of content and challenge should not naturally have better gear? I think that’s the place I’m starting at. It’s still true (see my response to bomm below) to an extent. But the line is slowly shifting away.
I guess the word “break” may be a bit hyperbolic. Most people who enter a normal raid nowadays already outgear it (unless it’s their random alt that they decided to pick up). Do I think normal is hard? No. I’m a mythic raider with a decade of experience under my belt… It’ll never be hard for me… For someone who has never raided before? Sure. I’d say norm stormwall is actually a significantly challenging fight, harder than many of the heroic fights. It’s easy to crap on normal mode as a heroic/mythic raider or an AOTC pug raider. Our raid teams are used to handling more mechanics, faster reaction times, high DPS thresholds, and better coordination. That in no way holds true for someone new to raids or for family/casual guilds.
To me LFR and WF’s are on the same level when it comes to effort. 7/9 Normal is for sure a step up, with the final 2 being another step up.
Either way, my point was that while yes Heroic+ and Mythic raiders are definitely more geared than casual non-raiders, the amount of character progression has been drastically reduced from prior expacs. I did not walk into normal HFC with the knowledge that I had at most 1-2 minor upgrades. I did not walk into heroic HFC with the knowledge that I had 4-5 minor upgrades. I didn’t walk into raid period seeking side grades.
Long story short: Is there still character progression in normal/heroic raids? Absolutely, but significantly less than prior expansions. And for what? So someone can kill a WQ mob in 7 seconds instead of 10?
Agreed concerning M+, but that’s a whole other debate since I doubt the players we’re discussing are routinely completing +10’s.
I’m going to be honest, I haven’t stepped into raids or mythics at all this expansion. I’ve decided I’m not interested in pushing anything. I’ve always been more on the casual side when it comes to end game, although not due to time restrictions. I just prefer playing solo. That said, two of my toons are sitting around 390 item level and and one of them just hit 120 a week ago.
It is a lot easier to gear up this expansion. I do enjoy catch up mechanics, and the many ways we can gear is definitely helping. I have no true complaints in that regard. I’m sure I’ll level all my 110s soon and it wont take long to get them to around the same item level.
The problem is, I don’t feel the need to step into mythics or raids because the gear I can obtain outside of them isn’t far enough behind. There isn’t anything to keep me pushing content other than bragging rights, and I honestly don’t care to brag to any of you. I prefer the way gear progression was in every expansion through Mists.
Good lord. How many times do I have to state that I’m not talking about Heroic+/Mythic players. I’m talking about casual raiders. Ie people who actually progress through normal mode and may not even get AoTC. Ie the BULK of raiders out there.
How is that hard to understand? How is it not getting through to you that THOSE players have MUCH less character progression in their chosen content.
Edit: Again… I am not affected by this (except via WF/TF). Though I do play with people who ARE affected by this.
I made a Mag’Har Orc because I really wanted the heritage armor. I think armor art this expansion is pretty trash looking, so it was a huge motivation to have better looking armor. I too am at that point though with armor upgrades, that I’m less motivated to log in because this week’s pvp rewards are meh, and we are still a few weeks away before iLvl 400 gear starts unlocking. Until then I have to content with Mythic+ people pvping and train wrecking me. I wish I could work towards guaranteed weekly incremental upgrades that would add +5 ilvl here and there.
I have 5 120’s that I actively play daily. I do the emissaries on them every day and the assaults when they are during my normal play time. I have about 4-8 hours a day 7 days a week that I play. It’s all casual play.
I enjoy seeing the upgrades and will always make sure that my toons run everything that gives the upgrades, but I don’t limit my play to just what upgrades them. I find much enjoyment in just playing the game and being able to do the content mostly solo.
The time I spend online playing is normally quite full. If I have time left over before I have to log for the night, I will work on my monk. She should join the 120’s soon and the gearing for her will begin.
I am very casual, but also, as someone said, a “no lifer” due to the time I spend online. Retirement has freed up much time for me so I am not as limited as I was when I worked 5 days a week.
As to what content I enjoy doing the most? I enjoy current content for the most part. It takes most of my time. I really wouldn’t want to change a thing.
I have yet to get an answer as to why someone playing casually needs ilevel gear comparable to that of m+/raids.
PvP, they have a scaling system where gear differences are minor besides secondary stats/trinkets(which is why PvPers want vendors).
If you’re a solo player, why do you need ilevel above 370? You don’t do anything in the game that would require higher than that. 370 should be the cap for gear from WQs, Casual BGs, LFR and M0.
I agree that wow gear progression is weird right now.
I play a lot of characters pretty casually, and I’ve never felt pressured to play every bit of content that could potentially reward gear. I prefer a more relaxed pace.
Yet even without trying, my alts gear up so quickly that it makes entry-level content unrewarding.
If I want to try a new role, say healing, I SHOULD start at normal raiding and low keys. And that content should give me rewards I can actually use, at least for a while.
Instead, a few emissaries and some warfronts - the easiest content in the game - will gear my healer up so much that normal raids and low keys won’t have useful rewards anymore. So while I’m trying to learn my class in skill-appropriate content, I won’t get anything for it.
It’s so weird when you think about it: The biggest leap in difficulty that exists in this game is when you go from easy, unfailable solo content into content that actually requires some group coordination and a knowledge of mechanics. That’s a bigger leap for most people than going from one raid difficulty to the next, or from lower keys to higher keys.
And thanks to loads of easy gear, it’s also the least rewarding step a player can take.
maybe i see nothing wrong with it because i’ve never raided for gear in the first place. when i raid its purely to play the mechanics and/or to play with friends. I think part of the problem is that people have become overly obsessed with the carrot itself instead of enjoying the content.
then again, these topics have always irked me some since the weird obsession in the early days that gear icons had a purple color on them earlier than usual. as if the color of the icon made a bigger difference than the stats on them.
anyways, what i see from all the potential drops in the normal raid gear range, if i’m going to look at it from a ‘chasing the carrot’ standpoint. is a way for guilds to gear up more quickly to push into heroic and get even more gear. at which point they should be attempting at least the first 2 mythic bosses every week with potential drops of 415.
just because a guild isn’t clearing the entirety of normal doesn’t mean they can’t start clearing the beginning of the next tier for even higher drops. complaining about a few quests drop 400’s is like complaining that a heroic raiding guild is clearing the first 2 bosses of mythic and getting 415’s. most normal guilds would be attempting to clear the first couple of bosses of heroic and getting those drops in the first place.
I disagree OP. I am a casual (maybe 2-3 hours every few days) and I have so far three well geared Alliance alts, and two well geared Horde Alts. I found it easy and quickly gained rewards by doing my WQ’s, one single warfront, and some regulars then onto Heroics.
In fact all my alts are so geared and I’ve gotten into so much content that I’m currently taking a short break from high level stuff and leveling a low-level alt. WITH enough time to get on, check reps and move on.
OH and I have gained Pathfinder Achievement and Exalted reps with important factions to get all the new neat mounts. And I haven’t done anything mythics or regular raids.
I don’t know what the issue is, I find it plenty easy with my lack of focus and drive to gear up quickly.
You missed the point. OP wasn’t saying it is hard to get gear, what you are describing was exactly what was being said… it is incredibly easy to get gear.
Apologies if I haven’t scrolled up to get the full scope of your argument. You appear to be talking about me (7/9N on this toon on normal 2/9H same issue [I had to be on my DH for various comp reasons on blockade and heroic grong]).
Yes, entering BoDA I didn’t have a ton of upgrades; basically the main upgrades were switching from Season 1 to Season 2 azerite and side grading to BiS items. My guild used that opportunity to get started on Heroic earlier than we did in the Uldir progression. That said I think the difficulty of the content and the gear don’t necessarily line up perfectly. I think this is especially true on blockade and Jaina. That said we pretty much have the first two bosses in heroic on farm now, and downed grong last night. The higher iLvL gear will help with finishing up normal.
I think my thoughts would be that the gear progression seems disjoint from the content. Which I believe is what the OP is saying? In some areas yes the gear awarded seems high, and others low. Just my two cents.
I think you’re painting this as too black and white. It’s multi-faceted. People play the game for different reasons and some are more important to them than others. I like to see it more of weighting game rather than an “I play for this reason.” I’m similar to you, I play the game for the enjoyment of raiding, playing with friends, completing a challenging task. I’d be lying though if I said there wasn’t some part of me that enjoyed gearing and growing stronger. For me that’s another part of the experience (one that’s been very hurt by WF/TF and other RNG gearing systems), it’s just less important. I certainly wouldn’t be happy if I entered Mythic BoD and had at most 1-2 upgrades with everything else being side grades…
That’s great and all. You’re viewing this from the point of view of someone closer to how I view it, BUT… That isn’t everyone. I’m not talking about people like you and I. I’m talking about the people who do actually progress through normal and heroic raids. Those people’s character progression are hurt by these hand outs. I guess that’s the point I’m making.
Ya, but this is now about timing. Usually catch up mechanics are meant literally as “catch ups.” As in you’re catching up to take part in the next tier of content… This time… the mechanics aren’t catch ups at all… they’re literally the gearing system of the tier with 385’s and 400’s dropping out of the gate from solo oriented content.
If they had these 385’s and 400’s drops come out 2 months into the tier… Fair enough! But heck… even I was minutely affected by this with AOO and the DS WF in the first week of the tier.