What’s in question isn’t what the Orc’s did, which we all know was terrible, but the Alliance’s supposed crime of putting the Orcs in camps. What option did they have? Because the only other option was to kill all of them. Considering what the Orc’s had done that would have been justifiable. So I can’t see the Alliance jailing or print the Orcs into camps as an actual crime, if anything is a punishment for the crime of starting a war.
Garithos was morally terrible, but criminally is debatable. He only got so far as imprisoning the Elves.
I don’t agree. The Zandalari has a long history of promoting conflict and causing harm to both factions. If anything they cloud have been charged with the crimes of their nation, especially Zul since he had a hand in nearly all of it. Neither of them were harmed or treated in a manner that would be considered criminal, such as torture.
They were a diplomatic mission. ‘It doesn’t particularly matter’. It matters that they were imprisoned as they were diplomats of a sovereign state. ‘You can’t do that in any setting’ as they weren’t active combatants at that point in time.
Ah! Right then. So Internment camps are fully reasonable things for any society to do and completely non-criminal in any form or fashion. Labor camps especially. I understand that the orcish horde as a whole was constituted of war criminals. I understand that there wasn’t a good choice. That doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a criminal act.
So various examples of death camps which were destroyed before people could be killed had committed no crime?
Considering that the stated goal of Gariathros’s forces were to execute Kael’s forces and they had to be rescued yes!
I apologize but uh. Wow that’s a hot take. Also the orcs were treated horribly in the camps. Used for slave labor, gladiatorial combat, and were going to be used as a private army. Like… What?
Not every person of a race, nationality, or government are considered combatants in a war! People can change in status from combatant to non-combatant as well.
Putting someone in jail to await execution is not the same as a place with the sole purpose of ethic cleaning. You’re comparison is abhorrent. Yeah Garithos was a racist but this was certainly not a death camp.
So what your saying is that they did have killed all the Orc’s right? That’s the only other alternative and yet I’m sure you’d be complaining about that too.
The vast majority of the camps were kept under guard and in order by the paladins. It’s possible slave labor happened but is that not appropriate recompense for all the lives they took? As for the gladiators, this was wrong. But installing the camps for their intended purpose is not a crime. But I’m curious, what do you think should have been done with the Orcs after w2?
Zul and Teljani were members of the upper echelons of that society with full knowledge and awareness of the crimes of the Zandalari, not ordinary citizens. They were taken to account for their crimes and to stop their alignment with Sylvanas.
Right then, so done a good bit of work as a history nut. To start off. The Death Camps in Germany are not the only death camps in the world that are abhorrent, nor were all of their prisoners ethnic, but they were also political. Second point on this issue, his men said they were going to execute the people there. I said death camp after all.
As for the orcs. It was a bad situation. However, that doesn’t mean what was done wasn’t a criminal act, and it certainly doesn’t mean that it wasn’t amoral… Also I’m sorry that you are alright with the use of Slave labor. Truly I am. My bias is showing here, but I’m glad that isn’t my standard.
Last point. Yeah, I’m aware of that fact. They still were envoys of an official state rather than military targets in Talanji’s case. And in Zul’s case by any normal standard he wouldn’t be considered a combatant at that point in time. I included
I would truly advise that you look at your beliefs, and truly look into real world history. I apologize but there is so much abhorrent stuff here that I have no desire to continue speaking with you and will not reply to your responses further. Please do not post in this thread again.
Both forced labor for war reparations (done by all of the Allies after WWII), and forced labor by POWs in a non-military capacity are perfectly acceptable under the laws of war.
You must agree that once it came to children carrying out those tasks a line aught to have been drawn though yes? Thank you for that information by the by! Was not aware of that fact of history.
The only person who comes to mind is Thrall, and a lot of the context in the situation doesn’t apply (he was found after the First War, and was only briefly held in the camps to return him to Blackmoore). He was, for all intents and purposes, kidnapped and enslaved independently. That’s a crime, for which Blackmoore is personally responsible, but not a war crime where Alliance armies are responsible.
And they should probably not be imprisoned. But what’s the real option? Adopt them out? Give paroles to the parents? It took Thrall and the elements to awaken most Orcs from their demon-withdrawal imposed lethargy; the vast majority of Orcs freed would probably have starved to death.
And another thing: they were doing this with next to no money. Gilneas had already withdrawn from the Alliance, and Strom wasn’t far behind.
A point that I’ve tried to repeatedly make in this thread is that it isn’t about justification or supporting crimes and or wrong doings. It’s about cataloguing crimes committed by the factions against their own, other races in the game, or the opposing faction. It’s just about saying. ‘This happened’ and ‘This also happened’.
I listed out the crimes committed by the Horde, and the Alliance. Both are crimes. Both are wrong to have been done. Just because one was justifiable doesn’t mean that it wasn’t a crime. Even on the lists, there are far more horde crimes than alliance crimes.
I apologize for not supporting enforced labor, prison camps, and defending a guy who wanted to kill an entire army under his own command after sending them on multiple suicide missions, while also opposing other similar actions taken by the Horde and considering all such actions to be crimes. Truly the other side of these discussions have held the moral high ground in this debate.
There is a law that demands prisoners of war to be treated humanely. Which is absolutely something that did not happen in the camps. So that law was broken.
BUT. It is a modern law from our world. Humans in Warcraft didn’t operate in accordance with those laws, neither did other races. This is why I hate this useless score keeping.
Did the humans intentionally mistreat orc prisoners? Yes. Do I understand why? Yes.