Also, LOL VUPERA AS NONE? How about, running and trading weapons to the aggressor in a war of extermination
1 Like
How exactly were they deceived? As I recall, it was Horde orcs who manned the catapults and shamans who fanned the flames so that the fire would be as effective as possible at burning night elf women and children who were helplessly stuck with nowhere to go. Even horde leaders like Saurfang watched on and did nothing to stop the assault. Leaders like Lor’themar didn’t do anything to Sylvanas.
Lor’themar however supported her genocidal tendencies by defending Capital City. The horde had PLENTY of chances of chances to rebel against Sylvanas, but they simply did not care.
Literally no one in the Eastern Kingdoms knew what Arthas had done back in Northrend. It was revealed when Arthas killed Terenas.
5 Likes
just forget about it its semi retconned anyway, or will be
blizz admitted there shouldve been a choice in prepatch and now we are gonna go kill nathanos. its ultimately a made up story. prepatch went too far and i foresee them dialing back the average soldiers involvement.
There’s a lot there needs to be corrected, and some of it is ridiculous.
This isn’t accurate or fair. The Alliance in its present or W2 form didn’t even exist during this. Arthas acted as an agent of Lorderon. Quel’Thalas, Gilneas, Dalaran and Stormwind had all pulled out. If there is a single organization responsible for Arthas its Lorderon as a nation, not the Alliance despite what that moron Anduin says.
No. Imprisonment is not a war crime, especially when the representatives of that nation have acted against the Alliance in the past.
Were the Orcs tortred or given and unusual punishments during this time? If not, this isn’t a war crime.
this was utter bull on by Garithos but I don’t see it as a war crime.
Not a war crime. Illegal, but not a war crime.
Seriously…
This is just dumb.
No.
They didn’t really have a choice. They were running for their lives. Not a war crime but extremely dishonest.
Is it a war crime to defend you home from intruders? But they absolutely could have handled that better.
You do know the only one that supported the Highborne were the Highborne right?
Spying isn’t a war crime.
Nope.
5 Likes
This whole list reads as a despreate try to weight the enormous atrocities the Horde commited against the things the Alliance did but all he could find was a ticket for false parking and two library books that were due…
6 Likes
yep
thing is they never had any plans to properly pull back from there they just want to generate cheap drama and swipe under the rug most of the the consequences and just keep the metal moments because its not interesting.
The words “war crime” have slowly lost a lot of meaning on these Forums and have become synonymous with “acts of agression” or just “immoral acts”.
I was actually a bit annoyed the novel was called that. I think it, in general, it should have used a lot less legal talk and just focused or simple morality. Especially considering that, to my knowledge, there was never any agreement by anyone on the rules of waging war. And honestly? I don’t think there should be. We’re intelligent people, we can guess based on context who’s the bad guy, who’s an anti-hero and who is overall a decent person. At least I hope we can.
Some illegal and perhaps even immoral acts I am willing to justify simply because “I get it”.
5 Likes
This thread would be better if it was renamed possible wrong doings of each race/Faction within WoW
8 Likes
I couldn’t agree more. But look at this…
The op put this in the section the related only to the Orc’s of the old horde as is the mana bomb that was dropped on Theramore should be separated from the rest of the Horde’s crime.
3 Likes
Onyxpaladin: Casually lists the war crimes of each WC group in a relatively nonpartisan way.
Liira: “MUH TELDRASSIL, REEEEEE!!!”
12 Likes
Funny you included this under Alliance but not under Horde.
Hint: The Alliance and Horde actions in Pandaria were IDENTICAL.
Yeah, this is just bizzare. “not in an active state of war with” and your example is right after the Horde committed a War Crime against the Alliance and DECLARED WAR.
I’m going to assume you’re referring to the Scarlets here?
The Forsaken were killing Humans in the area. The Scarlets were not part of the Alliance, nor were the Alliance aware of what they were doing.
How is this a even a “crime” much less a “war crime”?
Military activities on a military establishment during war time is not a “war crime.”
Wasn’t unlawful. Agents of the Forsaken had just committed a sneak attack on Alliance Forces (and their own faction) during Cooperative Action against a Mutual Threat. They declared open war on the Alliance.
They Betrayed nothing. There is no such Oath and the Blood Elf Leadership betrayed them first by exiling them. They had no Loyalty to those who held no loyalty to them.
This would actually fall under Blood Elves, not Void Elves. Void Elves had done nothing of the sort and were still members of the Blood Elves when this actions occurred. Oh, and NOT A WAR CRIME.
Unlawful… What? How can’t someone unlawfully seize their own city?
And that’s just what I could notice. Yeah, your bias is certainly showing.
Frankly, making a list of Supposed “war crimes” together under the framework that they’re “faction crimes” is a moot point. Almost every one of these is actions of individual actors and/or groups following them, not as the actions of Races or Factions as a whole.
It would of been more worthwhile to make a list of Individual (ACTUAL) War Crimes commited by those individual actors and stop trying to make everyone responsible for every action that someone loosely associated with them may or may not be responsible for.
4 Likes
Just to point this out. I stated that I was cataloguing individual crimes by the factions. Not specifically war-crimes. I will also state that I catalogued crimes from both factions equally as best I could ‘without attempting to support one side or another’. I was not attempting to support one argument or take a moral stance. Simply apply the logic of activities. However I do want to address a few points.
-
I stated that this post was incomplete, however I wanted people to add or suggest things that I had missed in the post in order to make it more factually complete. Please suggest individual points for me to add. However do so politely or I won’t consider it. If you disagree with a point, again, please politely ask why said point was added, and I will try to explain my reasoning.
-
Arthas was an addendum as looking at the guidelines I had set his actions prior to becoming the Lich King as alliance actions. As he was a commanding officer within the alliance. If you look at some of the initial posts it was a polite discussion.
-
Yes, spying is in fact criminal activity in most states believe it or not.
Because it wasn’t his.
Exiling a criminal isn’t a betrayal.
Wrongdoing is wrongdoing.
And some of it includes mass murder on both sides.
It doesn’t have to be a tit for tat to be a useful list.
3 Likes
Now. I am replying to this post as I felt there was valid criticism here.
For this point, Theramore was not controlled by the Kul’tirans, was not primarily populated by the Kul’tirans, and had up to that point no legal contact with the Kul’tiran government. Beyond their ruler being a Kul’tiran. Daelin Proudmoore siezed Theramore without it’s rightful rulers consent. Theramore was an independent settlement.
The Alliance had not declared war against the Horde until after the Undercity. It was a surprise attack on a legal entity that the alliance had recognized.
Fair point! I was moreso referring to their support for them during vanilla, however I conflated their activities around this time.
Simply because one side commits a war crime does not mean that the other side has legal justification to take another action and doesn’t mean that it isn’t a crime.
Completely fair, just has been a while since I did Horde side Pandaren quests. Thank you for pointing this out.
I had a bit of debate on this issue.
I agree with you here. Which is why I included the note on mitigating factors
You don’t do any of the things that Gariathros did to any force in a time of war. Particularly with his intention of executing Kael’thas’ forces.
I actually do agree with this, as it was a mistake on my part and my intention was to have more of a general list of crimes.
I had a fairly difficult time with where to place many of Garrosh’s actions due to his status as both a Horde figure and racial leader, but his tendency to act only in his interest as a racial lead. Happy to discuss moving the mana bomb. However please be polite in terms of discussion alright!
1 Like
In that case I would advise you to change to title of the thread. It gives the impression that you are speaking about war crimes.
And it’s still incorrect. The Alliance of Lorderon was broken. All of the nations participating nations had left. Arthas acted with the authority of Lorderon and Lorderon alone.
Even with the mitigating factor isn’t not a crime, not when the Orcs stated a war that destroyed Stormwind, killed the king and queen and countless others and enslaved dragons.
Garithos was wrong but I don’t see his actions as criminally wrong. Had he murdered Kael’Thas and his soilders then I’d agree.
Horde. He and the rest that followed him acted in the interest of the Horde. He was their leader and they followed him. There is no one else to blame.
3 Likes
See this is something that is incredibly difficult to argue, and I would like to point you towards actual literature on War Crimes established at the Hague to prove this point. Simply because you have a valid reason for war, does not mean that you do not have a responsibility not to commit crimes while partaking in war. Justification does not mean that the actions which are taken are not criminal acts.
Multiple nations are still handling legal matters brought about in war despite being ‘the right side of a war’. Again, I’m not arguing that the Alliance were the bad guys in these conflicts like many want to argue. I’m just trying to list out the crimes. I admit in my post that I have biases! That’s what discussions like these are for after all.
The reason it is criminal is that he actively attempted to carry it out, but failed. Simply because you failed to accomplish a goal doesn’t mean that you didn’t commit a crime.
Lastly, yes it is a crime. I don’t consider it a particularly bad crime. However in most nations you can not seize diplomatic missions particularly in times of war, and it is in fact classified as a war crime due to the fact that it causes a reciprocal problem and makes it impossible to actually bring an end to a war. I generally find the presence of Zul on the ship to be a mitigating factor. But I would still classify it as a crime as Talanji herself had not been a combatant at any point up until her engagement at sea and escape.
1 Like
Arguable. It was Founded by Kul Tirans and the rightful ruler was daughter of the man.
Legally, it was Kul Tiran.
No. The Forsaken Declared war on the Alliance independantly of the Horde (and on the Horde too, if you want to get technical.) So they were completely within their rights to attack Undercity.
And it wasn’t a “surprise attack on a legal entity” because the Alliance and Horde weren’t at war with each other at that time.
??WHAT?? Someone declares war on you and you don’t have legal justification to reciprocate? It’s criminal to engage in Military actions against someone who has declared war on you?
3 Likes
No, it’s not, however there are defined actions which can and are taken in a military setting that ‘are’ legal. And a defined legal frame work by which those things have to be done, outside of which they are classified as crimes.
That may well be the case, however you still require a formal declaration of war by the Alliance in order for it to be classified as a war. As it was not, it was an internal Horde matter. Had the Alliance requested to assist the Horde in figuring out what was going on, it wouldn’t have been an illegal action. But they didn’t. So it would have been by any actual standard of warfare.
It’s people were primarily Lordaeronean, Jaina Proudmoore was not stated to have been an agent of Kul’tiras at the time, and she was behaving independently. It was not Kul’tiran, and given that in her capacity as leader of the city she had an invading force removed. It was in fact an illegal take over in an undeclared war.
No, they aren’t.
There is also no such “legal frame work”, especially not in WoW in which has no other Legal process to deal with criminal actions of parties against another party other then war.
You Honestly believe that the Alliance Could of or Should of responded to Garrosh’s Bombing of Theramore with a subpoena?
You can’t negotiate with someone who’s only desire is to see you dead.
The Formal declaration was the Attack by the Forsaken.
And even if the Alliance needed one (they didn’t) it was outside the Undercity when Varian Formally declared that he was going to make the Forsaken pay for the Wrathgate.
2 Likes
I’ll write that onto the list of alliance war crimes next to the 2 due library books we still haven’t brought back.
And I’ll tell you what, we won’t give them back. We’re morally grey.
3 Likes