Okay. You are simply mistaken here, and it has nothing to do with any “-isms” or phobias. It will work in some settings and not others. It has to do with worldbuilding. Is it logically consistent that someone from this area would have this physical trait? If not, could they have reasonably traveled here from someplace that would support it? If the answer to either is yes, then so be it. But if not, it can become jarring and immersion breaking.
A couple of examples where this kind of broad strokes character customization works well would be Mass Effect and just about anything Star Wars. The reason being that the player’s character could be from any imaginable kind of climate or culture. So rather than risk having your immersion broken, you’re actually trying to cling to something familiar while immersing yourself in an overwhelmingly huge space.
The problem with adding a lot of character customization in a game like World of Warcraft is first, that it’s absolutely unsupported in the game’s world building and second, you have a much more constrained palette of places and cultures to choose from. And it doesn’t even matter what race we’re talking about at this point. If you play an orc, you want that orc’s traits to make a certain kind of sense. Is he a green skinned orc? Then he was probably born on Azeroth as a result of the Gul’dan instigated invasion. Is he a red skinned orc? Then he probably has Maghar lineage, and might have been born on Draenor. This speaks to the character’s backstory. And that may not be as big a thing in a MMORPG, it is at least implied.
By this logic the in game profanity filter should be more than sufficient and noone should be silenced or banned for anything they say in game. After all, it’s your choice whether or not you see this and noone is forcing you. Even if you can see it, you still have the option to simply ignore it. Noone is forcing you to pay anything any mind.
Why? Why is it important? Was there a patch that I missed with outlier communities of differently pigmented humans, gnomes, elves, etc? Because most races in this game are a total monoculture.
(Edit) You know what? I’m actually going to help you all make your case for this: Add in player housing, in the form of a small community that you place Anywhere on either Azeroth, Draenor, or Outlands, and you can build whatever kind of physical traits into that community that you want. Boom. Problem solved. World Building totally satisfied. And everyone gets a cool new game feature to play with that they’ve been wanting for the past decade on a larger scale than simply “A House”.
I demand caucasian skin coloring for all kung-fu panda, orcs, trolls, space goats, moocows, and , foxes. This aggression will not stand, man! I deserve to be represented in this congregation of fantasy furries!
Usually when one offers a quote, one includes a notation afterwards wih who said it and, if relevant, the circumstances it was said. Since you didn’t, I’m going to ask “Who said it” and “Where and When”? I kind of need to know these things to properly frame a response.
The source is in the OP. I quoted myself in the OP quoting the article and right below that is the link to the article are you not reading the same context?
Humans came from stone giants my dude. Environment wasn’t a factor of their evolution nor is it at all pertinent to Azeroth.
Stormwind has from the beginning held a variety of skin tones and suggestions that it might have a fair few different faces abounding within its walls too. Extra diversity doesn’t affect you or your worldbuilding. Its already there, just poorly rendered until recently where that was improved.
Both of those examples work off of humans from earth.
Humans on Azeroth were stone giants who were then affected by the curse of flesh which then eventually led to a portion of them becoming smaller.
While I’m on about humans in general, some of those humans would eventually become actual werewolves.
Another group may or may not have re-bred with their former bigger brethren and become bigger than the average.
Trolls became through magic a thick big elf, then they veered off in multiple directions some of which lead to half spider elves, others to naga, others to saytr, high elves, void elves, withered, wretched, nightborne and so on. (And lets not forget that the Trolls themselves became multiple different species though I’ll grant you that one does follow a trend of evolution until you realize that some of those tribes changed actively and without generations.)
We have cow, fox and panda people all of which having allusions to coming into existence due to some form of magic.
There is a race of space faring goat folk with a sexual dimorphism so ridiculously large they would be debated in real life as to whether or not they’re the same species or involved in some type of symbiotic relationship rather than a single species.
Three branches, some of which with offshoots, of the Alliance were once rocks. The Orcs descend from rock based elemental mountains.
You’re using evolution in a situation where it has no bearing and displaying a significant dereliction of the lore around humanity as a whole for no other reason than you put it in your own head that humans are a particular way when nothing supports it or at the very least doesn’t stand in the way of more diverse inclusions.
There is a lot in here that amounts to “tell me you have only a cursory understanding of multiple races lore without telling me you have only a cursory understanding of multiple races lore.”
The only orcs on Draenor and Azeroth that are not green are Mag’har, orcs that never had the fel bound to them in any regard do to either choice or situation. Red or fel orcs were green orcs (or possibly some mag’har) who ingested significant amounts of Magtheridon’s blood. And while we’ve seen a great deal of colorations for orcs, much of which was expanded when WoW came out mind you, there isn’t really a whole lot locking you into those skin tones that would make it so a player shouldn’t be able to select it.
Green, Brown and Red orcs are all a part of the Horde since TBC not to mention the still unusable by players skin tones for Blackrock and Dragonmaw orcs that joined between Cata and MoP, and the Mag’har from the Alternate Draenor which also have a plethora of skin tones. Any of those could easily be expanded without even touching your precious misunderstanding of the lore.
So what you’re saying is that more diverse options are to you just as offensive as directly offensive language?
This a path you want to walk down my dude?
Its a take I’ll give you that.
I feel like it will be immensely difficult for you to understand why its important.
For one you’re only looking at it from the game point of view, second you have a wildly inaccurate view of those cultures you’re referring to based merely on what you have seen before rather than any solid lore indications that those skin tones are somehow not already there and third the idea that you cannot understand why it might be important to people to have the ability to see their own peoples and cultures shown as just as good and heroic and worthy of existing as “white” culture is just too deep a well for me to have to try to educate you on.
Okay. Pardon me for not being a bit more diligent and presuming that this was all about forced diversity and inclusion when… in reality… it was all about forced diversity and inclusion.
That aside, I’m not surprised that it was Ion who said this in an interview. Let’s consider a couple of things: Ion may be a lot of things, including an outstanding encounter designer, former lead developer, and current game director for WoW but he is not a world builder, nor is he the person who wrote most of Warcraft’s lore. That distinction goes to Chris Metzen.
In the article with Red Shirt Guy Ian Bates, he defers specifically to Warcraft’s current worldbuilder (if you can call him that) Steve Danuser. Now I don’t know what you credit Mr. Danuser for, but I credit him with writing a dumpster fire of a story for the game of late. His idea of “worldbuilding” IMHO involves bulldozing what was left to him and then rearranging the rubble that’s left behind. And Even Steve Danuser Admits That This Was Half About World Building And Half About FORCED DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION.
Blizzard has gone from doing a lot of things right with their games to, in a very short period of time, doing things very wrong. So you’ll excuse me for keeping my own council about whether Mr. Danuser has the game’s, the story’s, or the player base’s best interests at heart when making narrative changes. His past decisions certainly do not reflect this. Nor do they reflect an abundance of reverence and respect for the original material.
So this is the part where after trying to make a claim about the game that the games developers themselves have already repudiated and ignoring my source on this, being called on ignoring the source you’re now doing the thing people try to do when they claim to know more than the game developers?
And this is all over you disliking representation and diversity? Despite devs confirming the ball is rolling on that and its how they’ve always seen Azeroth by admitting they’re long over due and have been oversight on their part, you’re sticking to the you know the lore better and in this case its in an attempt to take issue w the fact that black and brown people exist in this setting and the options to facilitate that representation.
Given that that’s the end these changes are ultimately made to pursue I don’t see why? You’re telling me you’re going from “Diversity For Diversity’s Sake” to something else? No? Good. Let’s move on.
Then WHY are you so OBSESSED with needing a zillion different character options? If humanity came from ONE evolutionary path and ONE ONLY, then you’re not going to have any diversity. PERIOD. NONE. Because that’s how evolution works! You. Get. Nothing!
The problem with what you’re saying is that it doesn’t matter who or what the progenitor species was. They could be stone giants, trolls, orcs, fish, cows, space goats, or whatever. If you want different physical traits, then those are (unless Warcraft comes up with some other logically consistent way of accounting for this) the result of environmental pressure, point mutation, and natural selection. The alternative is that they were simply magicked into existence at some point. The important consideration, is that the variants can still produce reproductively viable offspring. So either you have a Darwinian style of evolution, or some magical process that functions the same way. Evolution is Evolution no matter how it happens.
I was using the orcs as an example. This does not merit an extended conversation, so understand when I don’t give it one.
No. It’s a matter of principle given your argument. If I am forced to tolerate the results of this hamfisted approach to forced physical diversity, with the option to not use it and ignore the physical differences; then why are you not expected to do the same with respect to the free range of expression? Especially since there are tools in game that allow you to do exactly that?
Why does Identity matter more than Opinion?
Oh and Btw… I have no problem at all with Character Customization options as long as they make sense. And personally? I try not to be offensive in any way, but I reserve the right to say “This makes no sense”. If that offends, then IMHO you deserve to be offended.
I feel like you say this because you don’t have a simple, logically consistent answer.
And… this bears that out:
First of all, I’m keeping it about the game because it’s literally about the game. Second, I would be a little more careful in your presumptions. You’re harping at me as if I were Caucasian, and as if being Caucasian was a bad thing. Also, that I’m “ignorant” and you need to “educate me”.
Listen very carefully: I’m not White.
Now as far as the quote?
Yep. We covered that. No need for a rehash.
I am curious what you thought about my proposal? If you even gave it a look? I thought it was a pretty decent compromise.
Quick question for you: Was the story for BfA and SL garbage, or wasn’t it?
It’s not about my ability to appreciate the game lore. It’s about the story writer’s ability to produce it. If he’s not true to the existing story, then how can I be held responsible for not being able to appreciate what he’s peddling?
So you’re gotcha moment to try to argue against black and brown people existing in warcraft w customization options is to point to BFA / SL being bad?
BFA and SL could have been great and diverse options to facilitate representation would still be a good move, the expansions being bad doesn’t negate the importance or dismiss the fact that that move on Blizzards part is good.
This is where Blizzard is at, thankfully, but what they have done is not enough.
You’re stuck in still trying to argue against diverse options and representation, we’re past that, Blizzard is quite frankly past that and repudiated your stance.
The point of this thread is to seek the continuation of fulfilling this goal, one that has already been started and addressed by Blizzard.
Nope. I want to know where they came from. I think that’s reasonable and logical. Oh and btw… BFA and SL’s stories WERE BAD. End of story.
And you just took my question, butchered it, and are now showing it off out of context. It’s fine though, you’ve illustrated perfectly that the only diversity you care about is the physical kind, and that diversity of opinion matters not a bit to you.
Basically We all need to look different so we can all think alike!
I’m going to call myself done with this, because I just hit the point of being completely disgusted.
I am going with a big who cares. If Warcraft can have spaceships, giant demons, titan robots then the ability to assume that most of if not all the races that can have humanoid skin color/more diverse hair color/style/or be any gender representation they want is no skin off my nose.
They didn’t come from an evolutionary path. Did you read nothing I said? You’re trying to use evolution where its not a factor.
Or they just always existed from the get go.
Nothing changes in the lore this way. Stone comes a lot of colors and shapes.
Again. Evolution isn’t a factor given everything we’ve seen. Blizzard can do or not as they feel is needed. Diversity based options are just as lore compliant as any other.
It would be foolish of you anyways… you’ve already shown you’re flying with a limited understanding of the lore.
Just admit that what you said didn’t say what you wanted it to and that perhaps you should have taken a different path than prove that your first line was more of a red flag than not.
If you can’t read a room dude thats on you. Social schema are important in conversations like this and you saying these things is a big tell to those who have spent years dealing with that whether or not you intended it that way.
I never said you were.
What you are doesn’t necessarily give you understanding or not and I do not need to be the arbiter of that understanding. I’m not making a request of you. I’m asking Blizzard to continue their own claims of expanding these types of options.
Unrelated to the entire concept involved, thus I didn’t see the point of responding. If they add player housing sure I wouldn’t mind that being an option.
However I don’t think it should stop there at all nor would I consider that being a true continuation of Blizzard expanding diversity if its only locked away.
Kind of wondering if the people against this are those who take stuff like customization for granted since they’ve always been represented and never needed to ask for it
Uh. So they didn’t come from Evolution. The question remains: Where did they come from? If there are different character options then there must be a reason for them. What are those reasons?
Disingenuous. You’re arguing for some kind of Creatio Ex Nihilo origin of species where created types do not diverge and are simply continuations of Zerith Mortis style constructs, despite the fact that according to the lore, species divergence has happened as a direct response to “magic”.
Oh, I think I understand it just fine. The problem is that the writers are attempting to retcon it all in real time to make it as convoluted/involuted and nonsensical as possible. cf. The Jailor, Zerith Mortis, et al.
Yeah. I admit that I wasn’t counting on your denial of the fact that since the “Curse of Flesh” happened that life would operate along generally knowable and predictable patterns, rather than being monocultured static forms.
Whether or not I intended… ? I didn’t make it abundantly clear that I wasn’t on board with Diversity and Inclusion™ purely for the sake of Diversity and Inclusion™? I didn’t make it crystal clear that I favor Physical Diversity where it’s appropriate? And TBH, I really don’t buy your argument that environment does nothing to species over time. I don’t buy that we need more fish swimming on land, birds swimming through the dirt, and the like, which is effectively what you’re arguing for.
Your failure to understand just exactly what you’re saying, in light of what you’re arguing for is simply breathtaking.
I would love more skin tones. They should have added a wider range in the first place. I’ll never understand the arguments against it. It’s bizarre that people of color simply existing is immersion breaking in a fantasy world.
Okay. I feel like we should have a discussion on how words work. For example, when you use a word it has a certain meaning. That being said, when you call something a “human” that actually means something. It generally has 2 arms, 2 legs, a head and a body arranged in vertical bilateral symmetry. It’s a member of the species h. sapiens sapiens. Also, it has 42 sets of chromosomes whose expression governs a wide array of physical characteristics and which allow for heredity in offspring.
Take any of that away and what you have is not a human. I don’t care what they were before, or how they got there. It doesn’t matter.
I’m tired of engaging in these pointless post-modernistic semantic games. Things are what they are and aren’t what they aren’t. If you want to point to fantasy elements in the game world, fine. But at some point you have to settle nuts and bolts questions of reality on a bedrock of facts and the definition of a “human” is among those things, right along with 1+1=2 and Newton’s Third Law.
