Consolidated list of ideas to improve rated pvp participation

im aware, i mainly play epics, but think about the main playerbase who doesn’t do any pvp at all. to them we are all toxic and shame them for bad rating. of course everyone wants to be able to judge someone to see if they are good, but nobody wants to be judged.

if you remove rating from the armory, then you remove a lot of the toxic rating shaming players like to partake in, you can still keep it game shown when people post a group or apply, or perhaps on /inspect, but most casuals see stuff where a pvpers talk :poop: to each other about rating and they want nothing to do with it.

as for unrated play, the people who are into that are mostly still playing, but it is a shrinking population, we haven’t had any new rewards in the unrated world since bfa. and a lot of people didn’t come back after SL.

im 100% serious, and yes i just had this discussion in disc about zero sum and non-zero sum rewards and their effects on the game. the fact is the average wow player is a supercasual these days and they don’t want to put up with zero-sum rewards. for most active full time rated pvpers the seasonal rewards are generally participation rewards already, its only the glad mount and seasonal titles that really mean anything to pvpers and that even varies by the season.

a progress bar that fills just from participation is something supercasuals can do. granted, we don’t want people just afking away in random bgs and epics, so the reward on loss is more of a non-zero sum reward for your time. one shouldn’t expect to fully fill the bar and get the seasonal mount and elite set by afking losing games. more of a you get something instead of nothing sort of deal.

i don’t play for rating, i usually just push for the elite mog and stop because i have my niche i enjoy already, arena is a chore for me, but you have to think about what stops new players, from a psychological perspective they need to feel like they are safe to fail, safe from being made fun of, and safe from feeling their own inner shame from failure. the current pvp world is very much one which only allows those willing and brave enough to step into the spotlight to succeed.

if casuals aren’t interested in playing with and against hardcore tryhards and the unrated modes don’t offer any seasonal rewards or new rewards, then casuals aren’t going to see a reason to pvp.

one other thing i have thought would be a good addition is to block names on rosters, in unrated block them for the enemy team until the match starts, in rated solo, block them all match, and in rated 2s/3s block them for the enemy team until match ends.

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Kennie finally asking the real questions

what else is there?

:alien:

I disagree, but respect your opinion on that. I don’t mind someone looking at my ability and deciding if they want to play with me. Why? Because whether I play or not isn’t dependent on someone else allowing me to play with them.

From personal experience, the best players I have played with in this game are also the most assertive and direct players in this game. They aren’t waiting for people to make groups, they make them. So, if they want to have the initiative to put together a group, why shouldn’t they have all the information needed to make that group successful?

In the end, finding someone you can play with (a lot) and improve with is the best path. The friend I hit 1600 with in wrath playing mage/lock was the same friend I hit 2400 with playing hunter/priest/x. We both improved a lot over the years. That’s not something unique to us either. Find someone that is in the same boat as you. Be open to criticism. Get better.

Again, this completely goes away if you’re the one making the groups. Since I’m usually the one doing that, I rarely if ever experience it. And when I do have someone talk trash… oh well. Put them on ignore and move on. This is a game with real people and there are really poopy people out there.

Sure, fair enough. I do think they need to overhaul unrated play. We definetely need more rewards. They badly need to fix premades. They seriously need to add new bgs with more depth. Even fixing the existing ones would be nice.

Well, while we have those types of rewards, I’m fine with adding more. Just don’t take away the awards that the rest of us enjoy getting. For those of us who enjoy hitting high ratings, it’s nice to get a little something for the effort. While I’m mostly casual, I still put in enough effort to improve and hit most of the seasonal goals I want.

This sounds like something unique to you as a player. Not that other players don’t experience it by any means, but your experience isn’t universal. I’m fine with failing. I’m fine with criticism as well. It’s what I do with that failure and criticism that’s on me.

Take this for what it’s worth, but no matter how good you get, you’re always going to have people hating on what you do. I mean, people will actually argue if Peekaboo is the number one rogue… or is it Kalvish… or whoever. In the end, even the best players get a ton of flack, substantially more than any of us will ever get and yet they are at the top.

So accept that reality and just play and enjoy the game. People are going to try and ruin that, but just ignore them and do your thing. Surround yourself with people who have a similar goal and you’ll do well.

Some of the most elitist players in this game are PvE first. In all the years I have played this game, NOTHING came close to what I experienced in BFA doing M+. In a very short time I had 100+ players on ignore. Mostly massive egos. It’s hard for me not to laugh at them considering that content was still easy compared to most rated PvP.

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they can still have access to it, but that info doesn’t need to be public. it could be more like your rating is shown to groups you are applying for, but otherwise people shouldn’t be able to just look up your character and see your rating or rating history.

no, because you see it on forums, reddit, and discord as well.

i was thinking something more like the seasonal elite mog and mount are on a progress bar, glad mount and seasonal title go back to %ladder based.

the idea is to lower the barrier to entry and lower the gap between unrated bgs and rated arena. the idea being that you can do any pvp as long as you pvp to get the seasonals. more people in unrated means more people in the bgs to arena pipeline.

nah, they need to go the other way and lean into them, fix the pugs instead, make it harder for pugs to afk and stop letting people backfill into guaranteed losses. and this also depends on which bracket you are talking about, epics is basically the premade scene, syncing and large groups is expected, but in randoms its weird.

not me, but its something i have noticed in modern gaming. i got one of those miyoo things for xmas and have been playing a bunch of retro games and they just throw you in and then give you a big game over when you fail, its very different from modern games where they basically make it impossible to run into a wall until you are hours into the game and the words “game over” don’t even exist in the game data.

I guess I don’t see the point. Happy to disagree. The ratings are what motivate a lot of players. Taking that removes the incentive and the purpose.

Well, I was saying simply from a group making vantage point. If your aim is to never get criticism for something you said based on your experience level, that’s going to be difficult. The opinion of a 1600 player isn’t always wrong, but it may be short sited. I more than understand that the issues at the top also don’t always translate to the mid or lower brackets. In the end though, knowing the experience of another players is what allows us to communicate on a good faith basis.

I’m not against it, but I just see it losing its value if it’s even more accessible. Why call it elite gear if it’s just a measure of time spent?

I’m pretty set on this one. Premades have ruined epic bgs and ruined the PvP experience for tons of players. I think they have done a ton of irreversible harm and hurt PvP participation. The players who defend them are also some of the most dishonest people that post on this forum and they are nearly as bad as the multiboxer crowd. That blizzard hasn’t banned them for exploiting the game is beyond me.

Sure sure. To that, that we can’t really ‘win’ at most games these days leaves a lot of players feeling… lacking. Unfortunately I don’t think there is anyway to avoid that.

this is itself shortsighted, the best players in the game understand that there is powerhouse players in every area of the game. having 2700 XP doesn’t make you better than the best BG players, it just make you on par with them for your pvp niche. its why they decline when i challenge them to epics, they know they are out of their element and will not have the same game winning dominance they have on their home niche.

** wintergrasp, wow forum discord vs bsg , this weekend ?

Hrm. Disagree, but all good.

The best BG player doesn’t amount to much. It’s like the best player in the beer hockey league thinking they can compete with the pros. Just doesn’t happen. Not that those players can’t be good or even very good, but you’re only as good as competition allows. The competition in a BG is more often than not, just average. Which is fine. That’s what a BG should be. If someone wants to be a great BG player, there is nothing wrong with that, but being the ‘top’ bg player isn’t in the same realm as the top of ladder. I’m not even near that, but I understand the huge time investment it takes to get to those spots and quite honestly, I haven’t wanted to invest that.

I think you’re dismissing the effort it takes to be good at rated play. The amount of game knowledge you need in rated arena play far exceeds anything that is available in a bg simply by the design of the playing environment.

Now if you want to get 40 vs 40 together and try to have a competitive experience, I’m sure you can, but the game really starts to break down after 3+ people. You simply can’t be aware of everything happening and that ‘noise’ doesn’t foster good play. Even 5s was like that.

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i view it more like the best judo/mma fighter vs the best soldier, the setting mostly determines the win there.

not at all, but i think you are discounting the amount of knowledge it takes to really know a map well, especially the epic maps, as well as things like momentum and battle formations and whatnot. in arena if you are the best killer you win, but in bgs the best killer can often be outplayed via the map/strategy. you take the same pvp knowledge you need to succeed in arena and then add more layers and dimensions to it.

Are you dodging my challenge?

Sure, but we can all recognize that in the case of a judo match the best way to showcase skill is 1v1. It’s not some royal rumble. The best fighter isn’t just getting taken out by some random blow to the head. That’s what happens in a bg. It’s random. That’s why they’re fun.

I have a lot of seat time and have done an exceptional amount of BGs, more so than 99% of the players in this game. I get it.

The game knoweledge in bgs is different then what you’re getting from 3s of even 2s. You simply cannot track everything that’s happening in a BG. Because of that, most of what happens is just background noise and you’re not reacting to all of it.

In the end, a bg simply doesn’t create an environment that is going to call a lot out of a player. You’re not tracking the CDs of every person you’re playing against. You’re not timing what you do down to the second. It just doesn’t exist.

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This is a lot of copium, man.

It reminds me of how when classic came out there were tons of players saying that they had played on private servers for years and would own all the “washed retail andies carried by fotm comps”.

Every single one of them got rolled and the best classic players ended up being the retail arena players.

It was the same thing slands s1 where a ton of rbgers made fun of the arena players grinding the bracket for gear and after like 2 weeks the arena players were rolling every lifetime RBGer except for, like, camel’s team (that also consists of r1 players who also rbg).

Competitition just doesn’t exist in EBGs, and I’m confident you could take any 40 r1 players and put them vs an epic bg premade team, give them 10 games as warmup/practice, and after that the arena players would win 99/100 times.

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It all plays a role. Someone like Dean isn’t a R1 arena player, but he has extensive knowledge about RBGs and he’s a very solid gamer. Imo, he’s better than any R1 player playing BGB right now. I personally think he’s the best out of everyone playing the bracket after going against all of the greatest players.

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Doesnt he have some r1 shuffle titles??

Dean could absolutely be an r1 arena player if he ever Qd the game mode for sure. He’s one of the best warlocks in the game.

He’s for sure up there. Easily one of the best BGers in the game, if not the best.

He would also just press Q to Q and wouldn’t hyper-stack unbeatable teams to fight vs air and inflate winrates.

Feel like him, dingle, rev, camel, maj, sharpstorm are all just playing a different game.

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i disagree here, bgs have a flow and sense to them that stands out over the randomness, its why some players just don’t take random shots to the head while others do. and bg and ebg players still get CD and DR trackers, that info is good for everyone.

no, it turns out you are a member of RR, you need to talk to Ruthless and get permission to issue a wargame challenge on their behalf. if you are talking about your other toons or a new community based on arena players, you would have to make said group and make a name for yourselves first before you can go issuing challenges.

We should be fixing core issues with the game. No incentives should be provided until these issues are fixed! You could offer all the incentives in the world; if your game is fundamentally broken and not fun, no one is going to queue it.

This is the worst the game has been in the entirety of WoW for rated arena via LFG, no comms. The only chance I have is finding someone willing to use comms who does not cleave and can do setups, which is nearly impossible because many classes cleave right now with no way to turn off the cleaving/CC breaks. If they do not cleave, they might not have the damage or procs required to secure the win, compared to comps who are cleaving.

Plus, there is so much overlap, button bloat, and many spells we do not even need, serve no purpose, or dual purpose with other abilities. Literally every class is a hyrbid too. No thanks to a button-mashing arcade company buying out a pro gaming company. 2 years is not enough to think about these systems when they release a new expansion. Because WoW is so large now, they need at least 4 years to keep a game good and balanced before releasing the next. I would argue that no expansions would be best and just improve on the systems we already have. The 3 expansion announcement was insane to me. They can’t even keep the current rate balanced, and by the time they finally get the game tuned (usually the last season), they just drop the next expansion again and ruin all the work they’ve done for us. It’s like this constant game they play with us, rofl.

Fix the broken game first; this will attract more players, then provide incentives.

TLDR; It is like we are paying for 20 months of beta, and they only get it right for the last 4 months of the expansion, just to ruin it with the next expansion.

Wow literally all bad ideas. What is going on

Only the salty Warmane clowns claimed that… they’re all terrible people.

All the top people in Classic were people that were top when the expansion was currently out and continued to play till Retail…

Naw every PvP game ever has some sort of rating system for people that want to try can. Competition always increases toxicity however competition and the drive to get better is a big pull for some people.

I think the toxicity problem can be somewhat combated by your next point.

100% this. I’d take every single reward away from being rating locked to a season pass thing. This could be used to encourage playing all season long. Each week a new section of the pass opens up. You can complete the pass each week a bit easier by trying different things ie win a 2s/3s/shuffle/blitz. Don’t need to do a ton of other stuff but encourage trying it. Then the end of season thing if you completed all the weeks and tried all the things you got the glad mount.

The toxicity would be less because you could play with like minded friends who were just playing to have fun. You wouldn’t have casuals trying to get rewards and trying to pair up with sweatlords and both groups hating each other.

The issue with this is all the best stuff will always be locked behind the super high ratings though. It will continue to discourage new players because they will see these amazing rewards that they will never get and quit. People here on the forums like to say 1800 is free these days. However for a new player it’s absolutely not. I remember trying to introduce some friends to PvP. They hadn’t even heard of juking. No concept of los to avoid sheep’s. 1800 is far from free for new players and if we want PvP to not die we need new players to actually get rewards.

My main point to this is look at any other competitive game out there right now. Are the best skins ever locked behind the top 1%? No, most can be purchased on the cash shop by the very worst player in the game. Those games have way more players and the very competitive people still push as high as they can because it’s in their nature.

Wows reward system is antiquated and doesn’t make any sense in today’s gaming unfortunately. I still enjoy wow, I always seem to come back to it but I still think it needs to change completely to keep up.

removing the rating from the armory doesn’t remove it from in game, it just means removing it from the armory. as much as some people want to show off their rating, a lot of people don’t.