Except the higher spawn density and frequency of gathering nodes and mobs affects the ability of raids to get the consumables that they use to face roll content
Except the fact that the Nost code, which is what every P-server I’ve seen recently uses, is wrong by the admission of the Nost crew.
End of the day, your claim that 14 days after launch rag will be on farm is based off of bad data and you refuse to acknowledge that the data is bad.
A guild that is going for the 14 day kill will have zero competition for resource nodes. They will have no problem getting those as they will be uncontested.
Nosts resource nodes were legitimate, but they were competed for by dozens of high end guilds, they were more scarce than they’ll ever be in retail.
You just don’t understand how a minor tweak here or there being straight wrong even if minor can drastically change how the game plays…
Since you’re incapable of imagining this your self I will illustrate for you.
If threat scaling is wrong, and it likely is, this screws up the entire scaling of every single class in game no matter how accurate you think they are, because if each class can produce more DPS without pulling aggro then they’re producing overall more raid DPS and in turn the bosses die faster than they should in turn healers do not need as much mana.
Things like spell resistances on gear become less valuable as a result of these seemingly minor changes.
One micro change can cause a whole tidal wave of changes that you just appear not to understand.
And from what I read about the private servers; they’re a flat out mess.
No, players have not gotten better either, they have lots of practice, but the top guilds in WoW vanilla were just as good as the private players if not better. Some went private wow, while most continued to play live retail until burning out and quitting.
Point is, private servers are wrong, they can be fun, but don’t make believe that they are truthfully accurate.
And that is the extremely condensed and ultra simplified version of what I could have posted.
The problems created by a single minor change are far more wide reaching than you actually see on the surface.
Thank you, yes it is difficult to imagine your arguments since I have no idea which aspect of raiding you want to believe is so vastly different is the one you wish to discuss.
Threat scaling is not wrong. All private server threat values were obtained from Kenco’s research on threat circa 2006.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aWsaugLFByMJ:https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Kenco%2527s_research_on_threat+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d
However if your gripe with threat comes with shield slam and the changes that came with 1.12, we can discuss that in another post. I’m assuming the above will clear up your worries.
They were hot garbage in 2009-2012, got significantly better by 2015, and they’re about as good as they’ll ever get now in 2019 with regards to raid mechanics at least.
With regards to raiding, they are very close to 100% accurate. The only exception I can name off of the top of my head is a lack of ability to stack consumables/buffs with similar icons like multi rank scrolls, giants+roids+whatever that 18 str/stam pot was (only takes the highest boon for the stat, so you’ll only get 25 str versus getting 68 str like you would’ve gotten in 04-06). Likewise in PvP.
I understand that a small tweak can change things differently. Trust me. I do appreciate you actually choosing something we can talk about mathematically. Too many players that argue with me don’t seem to realize that their arguments carry much more weight when there are numbers to back them up.
It does not matter where the values came from; the actual data was never published.
Example if you used KTM that value on your monitor was just a guess of what was taking place, it was never fact.
They never once published these values at any point ever. We were merely making educated guesses on how the situation worked back then.
Private servers are using that educated guess to make their server… do you not see where the flaw is?
I’ll expand on the threat problem and how that compounds to the whole raid…
Even if its wrong by a very minor amount and it likely is, this compounds a lot.
First you have healers that don’t need to work as hard to save many because DPS is higher, and in turn mana does not need to also last as long regarding DPS casters either meaning they can use higher ranks of spells to deal damage… This is a nasty feedback loop that emboldens the healers to stack +healing instead of longevity stats like spirit or MP5.
Things like Fire resist that are actually needed before are no longer also needed in the same values because again healers are enabled by the higher DPS values, in turn this is another secondary feedback loop that contributes to the problem.
Less an issue but it does contribute; armor values on tanks is also less important because again healers have become stronger as a result of higher DPS figures.
Its these feedback loops that truly screw things up the most, and it only takes a very small error to cause it.
I like both of you guys but I’ve gotta side with Ironsides when it comes to the uber elite and their goals to achieve a server first. Whatever values are implemented, you’re talking about guilds that will mob-tag their Mages to level 25 for improved Blizzard prowess, and those Mages will be gunning straight to 60 well ahead of the curve by 2 or 3 days. They will feed gear down the ranks and trivialize earlier dungeons making it highly likely that these guilds are attuned within 7 days from launch. Right around that 55-60 range. In addition to that, they will be so far ahead of everyone they will have free reign of the zones and will have enough herbs to give everyone 5 to 10 greater fire protection pots for their first foray into MC.
When I was on Northdale I got to 60 very fast. I was in Progress and Kenny stormed ahead and carried our runs. When I hit about 56 and was messing around in Winterspring, I did a quick /who of everyone in the zone and there was only 2 others Horde side. So maybe 10 Ally-side because they had more and better people. Maybe less because they had more people to contest with. Regardless, I farmed Winterspring and Azshara nonstop for 14 hours doing laps of rich thorium veins. Over the first 2 weeks of the server I had 289 or something absurd. We had a buddy Ally-side we sent mats to, and made a ton of Arcanite Reapers. And we bullied everyone out of every zone, with the exception of the world-class APES guild. It was impossible to contest them when they had 50 or 60 former rank-14 players playing as hard as possible.
The elite will crush the content, regardless of armor or resistance values. They are practiced and dedicated and have a lot of time. Time they will undoubtedly use to conquer MC in quick fashion, doubly so with Dire Maul loot, and triply so with 16 available debuffs.
Even if bosses are pumped up to 7000 or so armor, the sheer number of debuffs available is going to make it easier. And then you talk consumables and availability of superb caster gear from Dire Maul, it’s more or less a given that MC will crumble far faster than anyone expects.
Then there is the issue with scroll stacking not working correctly as Ironsides says. No Brute Force and Giants elixirs on private servers, but those worked in actual Vanilla. There are so many variables private servers did consider to keep raid content as accurate and legitimate as possible. And they even removed world buffs from certain raids because elite guilds were even better than anything that ever came out of actual Vanilla.
If you take a group of Method players and gave them the roadmap that some guilds on private servers have, yikes. MC in 14 days is a foregone conclusion.
It’s a huge reason why I think the debuff and content release schedule needs to be addressed. ZG will take guilds a matter of 30 minutes on release at this rate.
This and the threat management kits are why I feel the raid bosses need their values tuned based on intended time to kill rather than on boss health pool numbers from 15 years ago.
It’s the intended time to kill a boss that should be considered for this project over arbitrary numbers.
Example if Rag is suppose to take 15 min to kill under original conditions, then they need to spend some time and crunch the numbers in order to as best they can duplicate that under the 16 slot Dire-maul equipped raid team who’s also flasked / buffed for the Molten core content era.
Not promoting any sort of buffs based on say for example ZG raid buffs, or Diremaul dungeon buffs, or any of the DMF buff, but simply taking in the obvious normal stuff that the standard raider will employ.
Yeah, it’s a big poop sandwich and we all have to take a bite. I’m not sure what the correct approach is.
Yup, too me the experience and how the raids were originally designed to be played is far more important than silly and factually arbitrary boss health / damage values.
No one was denying that the “elite” would beat MC fairly quickly. The argument is that it likely wouldn’t be as easy as it is on private servers. People seem to have this mentality that MC is going to be cleared in 30 minutes on week 1.
If you really can’t come to grips with Kenco’s data being accurate, I’m not sure what to tell you. I do really encourage you to read his methods of data collection, because it doesn’t involve KTM–rather, it proves KTM’s accuracy by using raw white damage.
It is a lengthy read, but very informative when it comes to threat mechanics.
Read his writeup, it breaks down threat gain into the most basic form (comparing white damage to pulling aggro) and goes on to use that groundwork to get values for sunder armor/revenge/etc.
That’s the basis for private server threat and has been for years.
Fun fact, chain chugging major mana potions/runes turns a healer from tier 1 ranks of mp5 to tier 3 depending on the class. healer mana very insignificant to those who opt to chug consumables.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080818233400/http://elitistjerks.com:80/f15/t9383-raiding_consumables_dilemma/
"Tier 1 Gear: 4450hp, 6085mana, 251 spirit, 365 +healing, 58 mana/5
Tier 2 Gear: 4250hp, 6700mana, 244 spirit, 567 +healing, 73 mana/5
Tier 3 Gear: 4610hp, 6970mana, 123 spirit (lol), 1008 +healing, 109 mana/5
Using that conversion ratio, we’re left with the following:
Tier1: 119 mana/5
Tier2: 167 mana/5
Tier3: 277 mana/5"
"Nightfin Soup = 8 mana/5
Mageblood Potion = 12 mana/5
Brilliant Mana Oil = 12 mana/5 and 25 +healing = 16 mana/5
Major Mana Potions = 1800 mana every 2 minutes = 75 mana/5 (!!)
Dark/Demonic Runes = 1200 mana every 2 minutes = 50 mana/5
Assuming all of the above used, I get a net benefit of 161 mana/5."
I’m not sure what your complaint is with the armor values on tanks. Was it that they don’t need as much armor to survive, I’ll just say Lashlayer because he is the biggest/only armor block early in raiding.
Armor is easy to buff up with stoneskin potions, even easier when you’re horde and can stack inspiration with ancestral healing.
Here’s the thing though:
Do you really want to advocate for buffing pre-Naxx content (just saying that because it seems like Naxx was the only raid designed with consumable usage being mandatory) to the point where consumables become mandatory for everyone (including the casuals)?
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love for raiding/pve to go the way of scriptcraft 1 where everything was given retard mode strength, but all that did was make certain classes TRULY unviable (not the unviable that people say ret paladins/other meme specs are currently) and made it so you absolutely needed the optimum setups and optimum gear to get anywheres. Hell, you couldn’t even solo heal an UD strat as a resto druid on SC1 because things hit too hard.
I think that’s a bit embellished. I think it is highly likely some are capable of stepping into MC in 7 days. But they surely won’t be quite prepared. We weren’t on Northdale and we had the server first MC.
But after 2 weeks we got it down. I think total time was a bit under 2 hours, and we had about 8 or 9 people in the 55-59 range. Mostly casters.
None of the Warrior DPS was dual wield at the time either. No true min-max there. Just a healthy host of consumable abuse and extremely talented players. If a bit toxic.
Actually yes I do promote time to kill as the measurement for the enetry level raider to that “New content tier” meaning with the appropriate gear for that tier the “time to kill” must be mirrored as closely (Assuming the average players) as the original game.
Thing is, I also do not promote the same methodology that was used in script craft where they simply just buff the bosses…
Instead I promote using the pre-naxx threat management and generation packages for all classes so that the content is cleared in the correct way. That in addition to buffing the bosses to compensate for 16 debuff slots and diremaul gear.
If we don’t use the original threat management then the intended stat allocations and design intent for the game does not follow in pattern to the original game.
Now the problem would come into play when you hit Naxxramas with OG threat, but is that really a problem or a blessing in disguise? I call it a blessing because Naxx being tougher is just fine by me, it gives the game a longer life span per server, in turn the very few that do clear naxx would be utter gods among mortals as they should be.
It’s the internet. Everything is embellished. It’s just the impression I get from some people in the PS crowd. Like “MC is so beneath us we could do this in our sleep.”
Fair enough. I rather enjoy running it with everyone. I don’t care if its moms and dads and first timers. It’s MC. It never gets old to me.
To this date MC is still my favorite raid/dungeon and Rags is still my favorite encounter.
The appropriate gear level is fine, but the issue comes from the strength of consumable stacking tweaking a raid’s dps from preraid levels to tier2+.
You will have a decent enough time playing through MC with everyone having suboptimum gear and using no consumables. But the whole argument seems to be about cutting edge raiders clearing MC in 2 weeks so…
Again, is this the shield slam change? If we went back to pre-SS days all that would happen is 5/31/15 becoming the standard tank build, which has almost as good of threat generation as a build that includes shield slam.
16 debuff slots doesn’t do a tremendous amount for raid dps, as the extra 8 don’t net you a tremendous amount of actually decent debuffs.
DM gear again isn’t that much of a change except for healers, but when you take into account consumable usage/chain chugging mana potions/runes then the DM gear becomes insignificant as well.
These were common practice in Vanilla, this is not new at all.
1.10 had shield slam, I am actually talking about the whole threat management kits as they existed before Naxxramas. The difference in shield slam is the fact that it scales aggressively with block value making the tanks job a little too easy. It’s like giving every tank thunderfury, it’s hardly interesting and soils the experience.
Yeah dude I can understand that. I’m on my like 7th or 8th total year playing Vanilla WoW, and every time I zone in and see those Molten Giants I just get locked in. No matter the group, I play my heart out and just love it. When I’m not raiding I feel like my day isn’t complete. Sad and amazing. ;]