Not when it came to clearing MC from server launch, which is what everyone seems to be having an issue with.
Which kit are you referencing? I’m not really sure what it is you’re getting at. Is it like mage’s getting a 30% threat reduction for frost spells sometime in 2006?
I was speaking of if we forwent shield slam entirely, which is totally possible.
I didn’t know there was anyone that had this opinion about MC. I will give you that Rag is a great encounter, but almost everything else in there was just bland in my opinion. The cool part is the epic feeling of a 40 man raid, not so much the raid itself.
Shield slam was added in patch 1.6 with Black Wing Lair re-release.
I know. I also know it was buffed in 1.7, and the rage/threat ratio increased again in 1.11.
We don’t have access to those numbers that we did in 1.6 because no theorycrafting was done that I have found on forum archives.
That’s why I went with a different tank build, 5/31/15, because it is unaffected by those changes.
There is some on the wayback machine, it’s all old as the hills. Gotta remember that if they do both change threat back to the way it was pre-naxx and in addition slightly increase boss damage and health pools to mirror the feel and time to kill of the original experience, the strategies used on the private realms will need to be adapted.
Doing so will put emphasis back onto stats such as fire resistance because the healers mana will be extremely valuable again, in turn you will see DPS using a bandage mid fight instead of burdening the healers.
That’s the way the game was played, and all that changed with Naxxramas. IMO it was a poor design choice, and potentially unintentional.
ZG and Naxx were the best raids in vanilla, though Naxx did have the boss with the number 1 worst mechanics design of all time (4H) as well as being on the overtuned side. Even with those huge flaws Naxx has, it’s still an amazing raid.
I haven’t found any values on 1.6 shield slam threat, and to my knowledge no one else has any either. You’re welcome to source your findings, I’d read it through.
The issue is–5/31/15 still provides a high enough threat ceiling that you can still melt bosses.
MC is unfixable to be difficult. You either go in with suboptimal gear and no consumables/world buffs and it’s challenging, or you go in with preraid BiS and it’s fairly easy, or go in with world buffs/consumables and it’s a breeze.
It’ll be done in 2 weeks post launch.
Straight off the hop. World of WarCraft patch notes indicate a lot of the changes that took place.
Previous value was 30 rage, ill find the damage and threat modifier values per rage point later; they are important to the calculations.
Shield slam was used pre-naxx, it’s just that post naxx it became truly ridiculous.
We can agree to disagree, I know that it can be setup to be challenging without making it ridiculous.
Yes, it indicates it was changed. Not that a shield slam was doing 500 threat per use prepatch, and 1000 threat per use post-patch for example. That’s why I’m using a hypothetical that does not involve it at all. There’s not enough information to derive how much threat it was doing.
Unless you were to change how buffs from consumables/the world are used drastically, you’re not going to make MC difficult. There are too many things available to trivialize it.
i think a lot of this mindset is based on the idea that private servers are programmed and tuned the exact same way as classic actually was… i would be willing to bet a significant amount of money that there is a big disparity in the way even the “best” private servers were tuned versus retail, and i think a lot of people who consider themselves experts are gonna be in for kind of a shock.
all of this kind of stuff remains to be seen though, so im curious to watch it pan out…
Until someone actually wants to step up and say something other than there non numbers based feelings, current private servers are replicating 1.12 WoW raiding near perfectly.
We’ll never know either. Classic won’t be as 1.12 Vanilla was. They may have 1.12 numbers, but god knows what they’re going to do with them as it runs through Retail services.
Private Servers could have gotten it right. Or they could have been totally off. But if they are any indication, 1.12 is wacked and not anywhere near the Vanilla experience.
er… unless you have exact numbers this is also just a “feeling”.
yeah i guess that was more my point, that even if 1.12 servers are accurately replicating 1.12, its NOT an accurate replication of what raiding in classic was actually like for the most part, especially early mc. maybe its wishful thinking on my part, hoping that blizzard tweaks the numbers, but if they do then someone whose only experience with vanilla is 1.12 servers probably would be caught off guard.
We have exact numbers for threat, boss armor values are standard, and resistances are known.
It sounds like most of the people that argue against me just wish that there will be an experience comparable to what they had when they first went through it without having other people blow through it through consumable abuse.
There are going to be quite a lot of things about raiding in classic are not an accurate representation of vanilla. And I think the specific details of certain numbers are the least of them, going into a raid where everyone is both experienced with both MMO RPG’s in general and the specifics of WoW and where the details of that raid is well known to everyone is inherently never going to be the same as vanilla.
I agree with Ironsides here. I might be a staunch advocate of private servers but that’s because I spent an insane amount of time in actual Vanilla. I’m talking from November 29, 2004, until The Dark Portal event; I spent at minimum around 60 hours a week. Sometimes 70 or 80. Our guild was cutting edge and was the only guild on Shadowsomg to beat more than just 1 boss in Naxx, attaining 6/15 before BC launched.
When I started on Nostalrius, I was completely blown away. My real life friends watching me gear my first toon, a Paladin, were equally stunned. It played identical to Vanilla. I died to simple mobs. The dungeons were scripted well, with noticeable flaws.
Since then, Elysium and Light’s Hope have continually addressed those flaws and they play phenomenal.
When the entire idea of legacy servers began, no one was more on-board than private server players. We have gone through so many iterations of servers and lost so many toons, dating far back before Nostalrius with Scriptcraft, Emerald Dream, Feenix, Kronos, and RetroWoW. Every toon lost was a blow. We wanted nothing more than reliability.
As the Nostalrius team and former Vanilla All-Stars like Kungen repeatedly focused the magnifying lens on Blizzard’s inability to retain players, but had this great game available, the hype grew. Everyone knows where it has gone since then.
While we debate the intricacies and the numbers, subjective feelings, factual data from illicit servers, one thing remains; all of us want this foray via Blizzard rebooting Vanilla, branding it Classic, to succeed tenfold. We long for authenticity in a day and age where people take first glance media as concrete fact. We want our toons to last as long as the servers remain. We want fresh servers to open and usher in new eras of WoW players to experience something we have devoured with our hearts and souls.
But none of these feelings and goals will change the fact that the majority of tenured players have mastered the logistical capabilities of their toons and have more or less Doctored in World of Warcraft. Taking these skills and Google’s roadmap, YouTube’s videos, and the forum’s voices, it will be different than anyone remembers. But it can be the same in many regards.
Private servers crushed this and captured the mysticism and wonderful game that Vanilla was. We are all hopeful Blizzard does it justice, because they, above anyone else, have far more tools and resources available to do so.
If we cannot hold them accountable, we are left wishing upon a star. I’m not necessarily worried we won’t get Vanilla. I know we are going to get Classic.
The difference could be as vast as Optimal =/= Viable.
no youre absolutely right and i dont disagree, it’ll never be exactly the same, for all the reasons you mentioned. but at the same time, the question is, do people want to play the exact same thing theyve been playing on private servers for years? its probably not reasonable for us to expect them to recreate each individual patch cycle (as much as im sure people might enjoy that), but blizzard are the ones with the data and expertise to curate an experience thats closer to what it was, even if its not and never will be exact.
i guess in the end its the same argument people have been having about the game since the idea of “recreating classic” became a thing. do you want a straight up 1:1 recreation of the game at a specific point in time? or is it better to make minor tweaks to increase the lifespan of the game?
Not sure why you keep on insisting that private servers have exact numbers let alone their calculations, when there is no way, unless you hacked into the blizzard servers, to actually get them.
I’ll give you 20 use cases and 5 variables and the result. Now tell me the formula.
That’s what private servers are doing.
If you want to be a fan boy, that’s totally fine - but please keep some things in perspective.
Well I’m all for minor tweaks to the game as I’m not a militant #nochange. But either we’re making changes to 1.12 or we’re not. And what I think should be changed about 1.12 to increase its lifespan is likely different than others.
Scroll up for Kenco’s threat calculations.
It was well known armor was standardized for bosses (3700 armor) with few exceptions.
Spell coefficients are known.
If you want to argue a specific point, fine. Don’t give broad generalizations because those are impossible to debate.
I have a better perspective than most because I’ve been involved in bug tracking on classic servers for a decent chunk of almost 7 years. That’s where my perspective comes from.