# Classic raiding and know-it-All's

Specifics? I’m not sure how much clearer this gets. Blizzard has almost all the numbers, almost all the calculations. They are the gate keepers. Everything else is a guess.

I understand. Lots of time and effort was put into figuring all this stuff out. It’s a sensitive topic. But it still doesn’t take away from the fact that it’s all predicated on guess work.

That Nost dev said as much himself as well as Blizz laughing when they asked if they were accurate.

C’mon. Seriously?

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It is not a guess if you’re clever. Let’s theorycraft using bloodthirst, since I don’t want to leave you with the impression that variance plays a part in the math.
As a primer, bloodthirst will always do 45% of your attack power in damage. So that means the damage it causes is constant, which will allow you to calculate a bosses armor if you found a video of a boss kill with a fury warrior PoV.

`https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psD1JWt17hI&feature=youtu.be`
5 sunders, CoR, faerie fire
1:22 BT 620
1:44 BT 613 (crit)
1:51 BT 613
1:58 BT 613
2:16 BT 612
2:20 boss gained gift of arthas debuff (damage increased by 8)
2:24 BT 705

705 - 612 - 8 = 85 BT damage from crusader
Crusader should add 200 * 0.45 = 90 damage to BT.
1 - 77/90 = amount of damage reduced by armour

Solving (x - 2250-505-640) / (60 * 85 + 400 + x - 2250-505-640) = 1 - 85/90.0
yields x = 3718

I’m not sure how much more clearer I can make this. You either accept the numbers as they are presented, or continue to shut your eyes and scream “PRIVATE SERVERS ARENT ACCURATE”

Pservers have captured that Vanilla feel. absolutely. It’s why I played on them.

But some people drank way too much koolaid.

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I would bet its worst than that. Make a thread and ask people to submit pics of their blizz account showing they were even subbed at all during vanilla, and watch how empty that thread is…

The loudest people about that stuff are the ones who probably never stepped foot in the content until it was outdated. The others likely don’t care enough to beat on their chest about 15 year old gaming achievements.

If they did it was by not being vanilla.

I played on vanilla servers a couple months after launch and vanilla servers that were released in later patches the experience was nowhere near comparable and that was during vanilla time frame.

But yet in the classic demo most of them died to 2 mobs on them but like you said know it alls…lol.

Frankly, i’m impressed at the effort the private server folks have put in. Damn impressed. You don’t need to prove that you have tried to explore everything to the nth degree. There’s no need to “show” me anything by giving me an example.

“It’s not a guess if you’re clever”. What’s the saying. Correlation doesn’t mean Causation? A guess is a guess. Right or wrong.

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out of curiosity what changes would you make? you dont have to be exhaustive but im always interested to hear other people’s perspectives on this kind of thing.

And if a guess is within 50 or so armor, that guess might as well be 100% correct as the difference between 3700 and 3800 armor is less than 1% damage reduction.

It doesn’t become correlation at the point you’re able to work things out mathematically. It just becomes a fact.

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I would be all for seeing various class balance changes as well as QoL changes that we’ve seen actually work without breaking the game. These don’t change the actual content but merely improve how we experience it.

The cool thing about changes is we can look back at 12 years and see what works and what doesn’t.

Not to mention the recent watercooler talk a few weeks ago referencing this picture;

https ://goo.gl/images/s59Kr9

Which shows Ironsides to be within 10s of armor in accuracy.

A Vanilla screenshot they utilized recently to determine what armor values were.

hah, first time I’ve seen that image float around. Curious as to how it’s sourced from 2006 though. looks legitimate, but those SS’s are easy enough to fake.

All the numbers in the world won’t stop the nostalgia goggle wearing people from arguing to the contrary. Such as it is.

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Yeah definitely. I just look at the action bars and see the lack of bindings, and I think it’s gotta be a Vanilla noob ;P.

the correct answer is that if people want to bumrush the content with ultraperfect scores…let them. That’s basically what speed running is. And if they’re disappointed with difficulty, they can run it with 30 players instead of 40.

Not everyone could prove that though. I was subbed in vanilla, but owing to some misunderstandings about computer security at the time, I lost it towards the end of wrath. If I hadn’t, and it was the same account, the closest I could come to proving it would probably be equipping Linken’s Sword of Mastery, because I wasn’t exactly taking screenshots for anyone. I doubt I’d still have them even if I did.

Can’t see that image. But it really doesn’t matter. It’s for that one instance, that one encounter, specific for that scenario. Who’s to say it’s not different for another scenario? At the end of the day, you can’t take one guessed calculation, one value and say it works across the board.

Guessing at numbers and calculations, and watching videos, is building a boat and plugging in the holes with bandaids. I’m not sure how you can sit there and say it’s not a bunch of guess work when the Nost Dev pretty came out and said they were. And they got laughed at by Blizz when it came to raid accuracy.

It is what it is. This isn’t about one instance. Or One value. It’s about the game as a whole. Blizzard could have crazy calculations in there. Some crazy code. Some minor things off could cause a cascading effect for the rest of the game.

It is guaranteed guesswork and provided all the other evidence of what private servers got wrong and have been fixing, in addition to the Nost Dev, and them getting laughed at, I can’t believe people can sit there and say we are close to being accurate because we watched a lot of video - which in itself I can name whatever I want.

Edit: And I’m typing fast since I’m at work. So I may be repeating a bunch of stuff.

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See my response to Loial.

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`https://goo.gl/images/s59Kr9`
Sure, it is that one instance. But it happens to confirm my suspicions that every boss has ~3700 armor. I could give you several more video analyses that support the 3700 armor standard value for different raid bosses, but I doubt it’d convince you at this point.

Again, Nostalrius was what… early 2015? 4 years ago, and I was on the cutting edge of raiders on that server.
It was a horribly scripted server at first just barely better than default MaNGOS. Anyone that played during that time will remember the apology when you just logged in one day and you were missing your boots and helmets with a server message about “gobelins” or whatever. It was an incredibly rushed server that needed at least 2-3 months more of testing and bugfixing before it could release as a “decent” server, but it needed to beat Kronos’ launch date otherwise it would’ve failed and maybe Classic would not have existed.
It would’ve launched in a much better state had Daemon/viper trusted our guild to test stuff initially–at least as far as raids go. They got much better with time as they realized we weren’t the internet superhackers the public would’ve had you believe, but they were still only two semi-competent people.

Majority of their team was immensely incompetent. Sorry to say. It’s not a popular opinion, but it’s the truth. Which dev was it that said it was a bunch of guesswork by the way? I don’t recall daemon/viper ever saying that, but I didn’t care to follow the drama of the shutdown anyways.

My personal opinion on the nost team aside, there is a reason why bloodthirst is so useful for calculating armor so it isn’t guesswork. It’s consistent damage that never fluctuates.

The damage reduction formula is taken from here: 2006
`https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Damage_reduction?oldid=323458`
Keep in mind that the enemy level is referencing the player’s level, that is why 60 and not 63 is used in calculations.

Sure, Blizzard could have crazy calculations in there. Or it could just be simple ones (which it is). I’m not sure why you think there are a lot of crazy calculations in Blizzard’s coding in either case. Hell, calculating the armor for these bosses is 100% more complicated than any of their own calculations.
Resistances might be the most complicated, but we know those from blizzard’s website.
`https://web.archive.org/web/20050324013020/http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/resistances.html`

I might just be talking to a brick wall at this point, but all the numbers in the world really won’t satisfy you I think.

P.S., since you seem so hung up on the “blizzard devs laughed at Nosts’s coding” phrase let me offer you the following food for thought.

How big of a hit to player sales do you think it would be if Blizzard came out and said that there was already a working 1.12 client 99% identical to what actually existed in 2006, but it was available already and free? ¯\(ツ)

Except that it would not harm sales at all because simply put; people hate corruption and the private servers are known for corruption, latency from soviet Russia and all the other garbage that goes along with the unfortunate side of the private servers that are ripe with corruption.

Part of the reason I don’t play on them anymore. Let’s not pretend it wouldn’t put a dent in sales though. Most people don’t actually associate the servers with corruption. Hell, even when Athairne from feenix bought a lambo with donations people would still donate to new projects not suspecting their funds were being used for something else.