Delvin must have me on ignore or something.
I think I remember debating him about the premade changes on sod or something back then
LOL what? I spent half the thread saying SoD was trash. You are cherry picking one line “the best time was p1 wsg” out of context and attributing the exact opposite of what i’ve been saying to me.
You aren’t wrong about the overtuned gear and runes, that goes hand-in-hand with what I implied when I emphasized blizzards needs to hire playtesters that actually pvp in a real classic+.
The best argument that I can agree with about resilience is gearing a new character in pvp is rough when everyone has resilience and you have 0. The best solution to this is stuff like the blue set from rep vendors in TBC, res pieces that drop in dungeons, crafted, etc. that you can mix with some decent pve gear to get your foot in the door and not be useless starting out.
We had a similar debate about resilience in SoD, we both agreed on a damage reduction trinket as a compromise. Honestly that is something I could still get behind as an alternative to resilience as an across the board stat on all pvp gear.
Pretty sure we both agreed the matchmaking change in SoD was stupid. Premades are part of vanilla and networking and socializing is core to the fabric of the game.
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A trinket works fine for me. You gain this trinket in place of engineering trinkets or the like. But literally requiring the resilience stat in order to even participate is not going to work the way people think.
Not only that, it literally destroys the flexibility that vanilla offers in that there are infinite combos of gear mix matching that can be done in order to excel in certain scenarios
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Yeah I remember our conversation now.
Unfortunately classic has seemingly been hijacked by an insufferable and miserable playerbase now that blizzard caters to primarily. They will continue to do so from the looks of it which is why I have no faith
I’m of the opinion that powercreep will eventually always get bad enough that you’ll end up with pvp that gets too bursty. So some kind of damage reduction against players is necessary eventually.
I can accept a trinket as a compromise. I get the argument about gear variety, but in the context of competitive systems like if RBGs were added, it is problematic if all of your BiS is tied to PvE RNG and blessing from the guild master. And if you make bis pvp gear the same as pve and too easy to get, you end up with pvp as welfare epics. This is where I think seperating the gear makes sense, but as I said I can accept a damage reduction trinket as a compromise.
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[quote=“Delvin-skyfury, post:146, topic:1951307”]
I can accept a trinket as a compromise. I get the argument about gear variety, but in the context of competitive systems like if RBGs were added, it is problematic if all of your BiS is tied to PvE RNG and blessing from the guild master
[/quot
The only difference is that “my version” of RBGs does not offer more powerful rewards than your standard rank gear.
The only difference is that the gear is the exact same stat wise, but looks entirely different (newly made up visuals and weapons)
Because no power spike can be obtained, there is no need for solitary balance like arena gear is gated by.
Another prime example was the MakGorah tournament. A 100 thoussnd dollar total prize pool with no limitations on gear/spec or consumables. Whatever you had available to you, you could use. That’s part of the fun and view ability of classic pvp. When you remove these elements you’re better off watching retail RBGs imo
My guild actually did this for players on our wsg/ab rosters. Our Druid got everything he needed for games, BRE to the main warrior, etc. that’s classic baby
Sorry for the slop quote I’m on my phone
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To be clear, I think it’s an issue if in order to be competitive in RBGs (or arena if they wanted to try adjusting cc), you have to have full PvE bis. It’s one thing if there is a few BiS items in raids and there is some acceptable but not as good pvp alternatives, but when full PvP BiS is raid drops it’s bad. The reason is something competitive like pvp should have gear be deterministic to keep the playing field reasonably even enough that a skilled player can push. Having your full BiS tied to PvE is an issue due to the RNG nature of PvE gearing.
Now you can just make PvP gear interchangeable with PvE gear like vanilla does to resolve that above issue, but unless you gate it behind already being at the top rating, or behind an inhumane disgusting grind per vanilla, that deterministic set of gear becomes the easy way to get gear to raid, welfare epics if you will.
Really though zero of this is a problem in OG vanilla, because it doesn’t have any competitive systems like RBGs or arena. In world pvp and casual bgs, the amount of wacky stuff you can do with different gear and trinkets is a lot of fun. It’s only a problem once you have a rated system that necessitates a degree of fairness in gearing.
Perhaps the next best option would be to just have pvp gear have extra secondary stats like more stam and distinct set bonuses that are strong in pvp or pve but not vice-verca.
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But you dont need resilience at all if damage isn’t turned up so high; tune damage based on PvP and then set health pools on NPC’s, Bosses in raid and all NPC and raid boss damage vales based on your player characters.
Resilience simply excludes players in turn killing PvP participation; something that has been seriously lacking in the MMO RPG framework since streamers and youtubers have floated the perception of “if you’re bad dont play”, backing new players off the cliff and out of participation by bashing their ratings and making it trendy to ratings bash.
In a game like wow we need new players constantly; especially if you want Rated PvP otherwise the game will be topheavy and then you will see cries for rating inflation and “I’m fighting R1 glads at 1500”
I fully understand the systems, I have lived in them for years and been very successful in retails Arena and even RBG before i quit them in wod because blizz wouldn’t ban bailmos for literally streaming his flyhacking at 2700, and his team using DDOS to eliminate our healers in Temple of Kotmogu every time we fought them there.
I came to Vanilla because everything about retail design is terrible, there is nothing good about it and ill defend the simplistic mess that is the beautiful elegance of Vanilla PvP because outside of S13/14 it doesn’t get better than this even if the classes are very simple in respect to their base kit; soon as you include consumes and trades and quirky items, this base game has insane depth of play and the most enjoyable and diverse PvP of any version of wow ever put up.
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Exactly.
Resilience it is a symptom of a broken game.
If the classes, mechanics, and gear are well designed - there is no need for resilience and there will be lots of viable items for each slot in pvp.
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Yup, it makes the game bigger and therefore better because bigger play potential breaks meta comps that can only exist in confined systems that restrict characters to limiting rules that often favor only certain classes.
I’ll log in and game at some point. Literally burnt out on wow from all the hijacked retail crossover that I cba rn.
Warhammer atm. One of the last non cringe IPs atm
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The new space marine game is really fun even if basic, but its got a really OG 40K vibes.
Yeah space marine 2 is gas and total war multiplayer has had me hooked too
Ill have to try the total war; haven’t played it.
funnily enough ive never been able to get into warhammer cause ive found the worldbuilding kind of cringe but I’m aware thats me having very specific tastes.
edited to add: oh i just realised you’re probably using cringe in a very specific pointed way and not just the definition of cringe
I just mean their fans aren’t soft and demanding things and rules change to their preferences . They know what the game is and the story and that’s that. GW has a defined vision and doesn’t cave in to soy demands.
In other words “Warhammer SOD” could never exist in this lifetime
I don’t really do the world building tho I just play multi battles
era is bis for pvpers, i don’t trust blizz to balance pvp after sod
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Then your team was getting gy camped by BM Hunters. Their pets could solo like 90% of the player base at the time. Even post nerf they were a menace. Boomies did come up near the end of P1 though.
No, you didn’t have to line anything up. It’s why I quit playing SoD. The PvP has always been absolute trash.
I have no idea how they can even begin to fix the mess they started. Scrap it all and start over I guess? I most likely won’t even try classic+ given their track record.
Not true, goofy comps like this were easy to farm on the flipside. Hunters were strong but a strong team compisition needed all the utility of bringing the other classes I listed. Typically you would bring 2 hunters, maybe 3. 7 is a noob comp. I don’t doubt your team could farm pugs, but against competent premades or even a 5/10 partial that is just hilariously bad.
Incorrrct, in phase 1 with the 25% res you absolutely did need to line up cc to secure kills. Again, it sounds like you were the premade type to curb stomp pugs and surrender when you saw another premade. Hate to break it to you buddy, a premade with coordination and target calls is going to stomp a pug where everybody is fighting random targets instead of focusing as a team. Against another premade using disc, if you are not lining up CC and setting up windows your team is going to lose fast, but it seems you wouldnt realize that since you were a rep min/maxer and not playing serious premade v premade games.
We are both in agreement SoD overall is trash. The root of the problem is player damage tho, which is why p1 wsg and the brief p3 50% damage debuff were the most playable versions of it. First step before even introducing player damage reduction tho is don’t implement crazy OP runes and gear and hire playtesters to assign appropriate numerical values.
I didn’t lose a single game with this comp. It was straight to the gy and get farmed every single game I played. I’ve also never dodged a game in my life, nice assumption there.
I can’t comment on any prem vs prem games because I didn’t try and set any up. But I’m sure we played quite a few full premades.
You didn’t. You are so wrong it’s hilarious. 2 hunters could take down any player in seconds, regardless of any kind of support they had barring like 3 priests spamming Penance.