Since classic+ is all but confirmed sometime after SoD…
The PvP in SoD was an absolute disaster. This 1 shot extravaganza took any skill out of PvP, it was just a game of who got the first jump with extremely slim room for counterplay. Just put resilience in, the best version of SoD PvP was when the 50% damage debuff against players was in, and even the hidden resilience buff in WSG in phase 1. 99% of the people who cry about resilience are PvE mains who barley even PvP and just like to occasionally do a 1 shot snipe with their shiny new OP wep. The actual PvP community who plays this game for the PvP does not enjoy this garbage burst meta.
Also we need arenas and/or RBGs. Obviously this goes hand-in-hand with needing competent playtesters who actually pvp. RBGs are a good starting point since vanilla already kind of works with bigger scale pvp. Give PvPers an end-game other than that awful rank 14 grind. The way you did the rank 14 grind in SoD did not salvage it. It still rewards time investment over skill, it is garbage, always will be garbage, and nothing ever will make it not garbage. Replace Rank 14 grind with a competitive PvP system. At least RBGs is a no-brainer.
You’re never gonna get better pvp in wow than Era.
The way those things you mentioned were implemented in retail are the main reasons wow lost almost all their pvp players to games like dota and leagues. Having arena / bg mmr tied to a ‘team’ and no available ranked solo queue was the most clowny-pvp thing in the history of humanity.
The best they can do is add MMR to Era pvp and nurture that for like 5 years before trying to make changes.
Dota and league are totally different styles of game. I hate those games, and no other game is out there that has PvP even remotely similar to WoW. PvP in WoW was ruined by the movement towards homogenizing classes which started in wrath and became overdrive bad in MoP.
Teams is antiquated i’ll agree but solo queue is dumb in a game where your composition is a really big deal. Not to mention in an MMO where networking and socialization is paramount.
Enlighten me on the gameplay similarities between WoW and dota/league/whatever MOBA. Oh thats right, there is zero.
Or better yet, can you inform me in 1 pvp game out there that has gameplay even remotely similar to WoW?
I don’t care about epic rewards other than titles? lol
TBC arena was great and it barley gave epic gear rewards. The bar for the weapon was low, and the shoulders were an outright negligible upgrade.
Funny you aren’t even saying what is wrong with WoW PvP supposedly. You are just crying “if you like WoW pvp you must be bad” and attributing things to me I never said. It’s a mystery what point you even have in this thread… just lol.
WoW PvP pre-MoP is good, with nothing else like it.
In this thread we have Classic+ variation number 69,420.
I’m sure by now Blizzard knows exactly how to make “Classic+” just perfect given the plethora of useful information the community posts which definitely does not contradict any of the other Classic+ variations that people have posted about.
You control a hero with spells and clash versus other players controlling their hero, each trying to win by achieving objectives.
Both dota and wow are spinoff from warcraft universe.
So when original tbc / wotlk rolled around, most pvp players had played dota back on wc3, so when pvp became worse and worse during tbc to wotlk… we left to games that respected pvp players - like dota 2 a few years later.
Titles are supposed to represent MMR, but the way arenas are setup in tbc has so much barrier to entry (needing to align time with specific other player to play) is so high for absolutely zero reason.
That is reducing the competitiveness of the pvp. This is the story of wow pvp, they add random barriers and each time you lose good pvp players to other games that offer better gameplay.
I personally find TBC to be so much worse than vanilla that it isn’t worth playing, but to each their own.
Problem with skill is everyone and their brother think they are highly skilled. Top 10%ers until they are confronted with reality. This is in every walk of life. Generally, people that are that highly skilled at something are not complaining, because whatever the system their skill set applies to, they are already on top. And can sell their skill. For everyone else its deal with it OR 10,000 excuses, faction, racial, balance, p2w, g2w.
The beauty of eras system is skill improves your time. Win more get it faster. But you can still get it if you grind it out. The downside to that is bots. That should be fixed by policing the rules. Much like any other cheating to gain an advantage in high tier competition.
I’m complaining because it’s not fun to win blowing someone up in seconds. Most PvP mains would agree… PvP is fun when you win through counterplay and skill expression, not gearing out to the teeth and setting up an iWin button. I like winning against a challenge.
I would posit that blizzard should stay away on all systems they implemented from tbc onwards, and go back to drawing board, using successful pvp games like dota as inspiration, to create an actual MMR system that promotes good, competitive games.
As far as classes are concerned, I think its very unlikely that any classic+ will improve on the current vanilla classes in the short term.
Right, only have fun through self-imposed handicaps. What well thought out, great game design /s.
also gets 1 shot by the guy who did not use self-imposed handicaps
They got rid of teams in wrath classic and it’s been a no brainer since. I seriously doubt they would go back to teams. We are also not disagreeing that MMR systems could be improved, I just also want the basics for a pvp system (RBGS, arena, PvP stat) so this is even a conversation.
Again, if you want good pvp I would highly suggest you make an Era toon. There’s is a very real chance that Era WSG is the best and most competitive pvp wow will ever have going forward.
At least with Era we have control and the classes won’t be destroyed by some update that did some pve stuff.
Arena/rbg is such a bad idea for vanilla.
Vanilla is designed to be imbalanced, changes (especially gear upgrade progression) will only make it another SoD. Imagine playing SoD and getting bis gear in a few days then the game is just dead. One shot is never the reason SoD is dead, the reason is that it has no content, and is too easy to get a gear upgrade.
I dunno man, I gotta disagree here. We were told that resilience would fix it and it didn’t, so why just try it again?
Personally, I think the right course of action is to actually balance your mechanics, scaling, and gear. While there are some exceptions, Vanilla actually does this really well. If you take warriors out of the equation and then the burst mages and elemental shaman, most classes get to have medium to short PvP encounters with each other that scale nicely with team composition.
This makes a lot of sense when you look at the gear progression between tiers. MC is a little better than dungeon, but not all pieces. BWL is a little better than MC, but not all pieces, and so on. Naxx was where they started to get a little silly but at least it’s still manageable. It wasn’t until later that Blizzard really leaned into this seasonal reset so that every tier was so much better than the last tier that you had no choice but to upgrade and restart your character’s journey.
If Classic+ is going to be a thing and it can lean heavily into horizontal progression, then Blizzard can tune gear so that it’s effective in both PvE and PvP by keeping the numbers relatively low. It takes care and intent, but it can be done.
SoD, through truly legendary incompetence, made imbalance in PvP somehow even worse. The only people who cheer ‘imbalance’ are PvE mains. Now there is a bad way to do balance, which is homogenization, which is why TBC should be held up as a positive example on how to do pvp balance right without relying on homogenization.
resilience in P1 and the 50% resilience buff trial in P2 (or P3? I forgot), was the golden age of SoDs pvp. It was a massive success. The only people who cried about it were PvE mains. During this time, skill and counterplay actually mattered, and you had to actually set up good CC chains and have good target calling to win team fights. Premade v Premade P1 was some of the most fun I had in SoD.
It’s important blizzard learns from the mistakes of OSRS when developing classic+. One of the big mistakes OSRS self corrected was they stopped including PvEer mains in the PvP polling and discussions. Before they stopped doing that, all positive pvp changes were shot down out of spite or voted for idiotic changes that barley affected them. Listening to the tears of raiders who would play this game if PvP didn’t exist is a failure that should not be repeated.
The problem is eventually with enough powercreep this is very hard to do and becomes the 1 shot extravaganza that SoD became. This even becomes a problem in OG vanilla eventually once people start getting AQ and especially naxx gear. There needs to be reductions in player damage to keep up with ilvl increases. Resilience wasn’t perfect, but TBC pvp was an enormous improvement just on this stat alone.
As a compromise, resilience could be baked into stamina so you can still pvp in pve gear, but I attest this would still be a bad idea with a competitive pvp mode because this makes it harder to balance pvp and pve rewards. A pvp main shouldn’t be forced to acquire appeal to the RNG gods/gleader for full PvE bis to be competitive in PvP, and raiders shouldn’t be forced to PvP for full BiS either.
This is fine and dandy for PvE, but PvP should have it’s own rewards that are good for PvP. Full BiS being PvE is terrible for a competitive pvp system.
Closest they ever got to Vanilla was MoP; it was actually really good for 2 whole patch progressions, specifically Patch series 5.2 and 5.3 before it went off the rails. Somewhere Mid / late 5.3 they baked Resilience into the game because the burst got so high due gear being way too strong. Yet again blizzard fumbling the ball when it was never needed all so that they could hamsterwheel locusts.
Vanilla is so good because Everything works as it says in the tool tip; there are some bugs but man is it so good, and better yet ZERO cancerous resilience that makes healing specs 10X stronger than they should be.
In before someone says “then make resilience nerf healing or add battle fatigue like in Cata” HOW ABOUT NO, just make the game good to start so you don’t need dumb bandaid fixes all because the gear / classes are badly designed.
In before some other clown says “use unique PVE / PVP values” again, how about no because that’s stuff is vile too due to the fact that it gets very confusing for new players.
I notice a pattern with many of these anti-resilience players that they tend to just give long paragraphs repeating “resilience bad, no resilience good” without actually defending their position. They just throw ad homs and NOOO RESIL BAD and think they sound smart because they typed a lot of words.
This is why PvEers can’t be taken seriously in PvP discussions. They just want to pwn noobs in 2 hits on their downtime but don’t seriously play PvP in this game. Every version of WoW PvP with resilience was better.
This is the only thing resembling an argument you actually gave, and it show-cases the real reason most of you guys don’t like resilience. You have to actually communicate kill targets, use cc well, and set up a good kill window instead of being able to just blow up someone in 2 hits if you have enough gear. It’s PvE players that don’t like skill-based pvp where they lose if someone is just better at the game than them.