The delusion in this post is wild. Please close/delete this post.
The fact is simple and easy to understand. We need real fresh vanilla from 2019 or 2004 (I don’t mind) where Blizzard doesn’t have to change anything.
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Everything about SoD phase 1 pvp was a meme joke.
- 95% of the ‘premades’ running around were worse than a standard era pug.
- The gameplay and mechanics were bad - with constant stuff OP (like the priest heal, hunter pet, etc.)
- I was mostly solo queueing as a paladin and could easily beat premades just FCing because these guys couldn’t tell up from down.
I’m sorry but anyone who sees p1 SoD as peek pvp, probably hasn’t played a real game of vanilla WSG
I mean not really.
You didn’t really have to do much different from era except have a higher uptime on like a druid with their tank rune on or whatever. the best comp was actually double hunter double rogue ret (no warrior) which is technically a banned comp in twink games. You just sat on the druid with 6 players until he died and yeah, cc his priest but you still needed 5-6 dps on the druid who was unable to come out of bearform or kite etc. The ttk on any class without tank runes wasnt much different from era. The “good games” if we can call them that, would see the druid sitting at his gy with 6 dps pounding him for 3 minutes while priests ressed and penanced him to full from 20%, sure you can cc the priests but this ultimately is a display of a systematic numbers issue. “cc their healers” is a strategy done in era too. This isnt unique to sod
As a priest you just pom and rank 1 renew your team to keep it going. Hardly a challenging playstyle. Penance to full if needed. 1 penance would top a druid off with 2 rogues 2 hunters a lock on him, etc.
It was just sloppy gameplay, sloppy numbers distribution caused by sod rune power and blanket values pruning in the bgs
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This is a reflection of the same problems persistent in TBC, Wrath and Cata, just as they were before. The Arena / RBG players who love those versions and claim them to be the Apex of WoW PVP are generally the players playing the classes / specs or team comps that benefit from that state of tune.
This is why I fully defend Vanilla as the best most diverse and well engineered BEST FUN version of WoW ever with MoP’s S13 and S14 as really damn good and near peer in this respect even if it was very homogenized, yet great for a different set of reasons.
Game versions of TBC, Wrath, Cata, WoD, and Legion+ have all had some interesting and cool functions within them but are also all effectively far worse in respect to FUN and enjoyable PVP for the every player; not just the Apex meta comp players.
This is were many mid / high rated players fail to comprehend; because they’re not game designers and only see the game play though their narrow window, they fail to comprehend that these kind of games are 100% dependent on “noob” players and without them you do not get games to pop, specially in rated systems where without noobs you have ultra top heavy ladders where low ranked players end up doing battle in closed competition VS R1 Glads and the like; where they have a literal zero % chance to win.
The response top heavy ladder problem to this is almost always the same: “Add rating inflation” or “make it solo Q only” where they will still end up in the same situation because no one is playing because they don’t like that they’re not the R1 gladiator.
Every time these “NEW” versions come out, be that something like SoD, the newest version of Retail or the newest version of Classic progression (Cata right now) there are those frontliners who think “This time ill be R1” or some myth they tell themselves.
Its for these reasons I fully oppose resilience on PVP gear or PVP specific tuning or power gains Via Rating in Rated PVP, because it absolutely excludes new players and worse underlines that its not really a test of skill, but instead a test of gear.
Its for these reasons why exclusionary gear or designs are bad, why power creep is bad, why Retail and anything built like retail is trash.
Its incomprehensible to me that anyone playing this game for this long cannot see why after all these years. This is not a complicated system to understand, its not an unsolved mystery, its painfully out in front and contrasted with "Vanilla vs “Retail” design and you can see it so long as you don’t become blinded by the illusions of past victory or “this time will be better”
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100% agree with you on this. The idea that the ‘higher’ rated player should have access to better gear is totally insane. Like there can be a baseline for gear, in the sense it doesn’t need to be ‘free’ - like the current ranking system and even some rating - but it should not be the reason why people play, it isn’t the reward just something you can access as alternative to pve gear.
Rating should only measure skill, be used to matchmake good games, and serve to feed a leaderboard. If seeing that number increase / decrease isn’t a motivator enough for a player - I seriously doubt they are a real pvp player.
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Yup, if they are not happy with titles and rating values then its clearly a case of seal clubbing.
Resilience was the death of PvP in WoW.
There is nothing wrong with raid gear being equally as strong for PvPing as PvP gear.
Players should retain the freedom to gear how they like but still be able to jump into PvP and be effective. Resilience kills that.
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It definitely was. Instead of just making PVP encounters less bursty, all it did was make toons who had high armor/shield/absorption/self-healing effects insanely impossible to kill.
What about the fresh 70 who grinded out every dungeon blue who wanted to begin their PVP journey in the battlegrounds or arenas? Bursted down in 1-2 shots and/or spent literal minutes chipping away 0.01% HP at the resilience stacked player that didn’t notice them the whole time.
You finally got all that Season 1 gear now that it costs honor because you can’t climb arena because resilience stacking enemies? Same situation, because your enemies are in Season 2 gear, or the super tier of that season.
Resilience had an okay intention, it was just implemented awfully. A better bandaid would have been to update everyone’s PVP trinket to include a passive that limits incoming PVP damage to a % of max HP. And make that PVP trinket something everyone can get as early as level 10.
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It is a huge problem with rated PvP (RBGs, arena), if added to to classic+.
I’ve explained in this thread, if you make PvP gear the same as raid gear, you have to gate it extremely hard or else it becomes welfare epics that invalidate raiding for gear.
If you make PvP gear equal but heavily gated to get, pushing in rated PvP becomes dependent on raid gear, which depends on your luck with RNG and weather or not your guild master loves you, which is garbage for a competitive system. Your ability to compete in a rated system being dependent on you getting lucky and potentially spending months just to get your foot in the door is bad.
This is false, especially in TBC. The stat difference of any individual piece is absolutely negligible, and people slowly get those throughout the season.
The wrath system was worse, but it was not game breaking. I started grinded rating over half way through season 6 and got my 5 piece and weapon with previous season gear. I scarcely raided and had no bis PvE trinket or heroic weapon.
Chanimal grinded on a warrior to rank 1 with PvP gear 2 seasons old.
I agree that the initial grind from hitting level cap is the worst thing about resilience. TBC handled this better with the blue 5 price you could get from rep and numerous other res pieces you could get from PvE. With some cheap crafted pieces on top of this, that system would have been ideal.
I disagree because the PVP gear if you’re required to grind for it or in say for example have rating for it in many expansions is simply inaccessible to most PVE players outside of them buying rating carries for the gear. If its a grind and that grind is roughly set up to emulate time to gear up in PVE (generally very easy) then really there is no problem
Players buy carries in retail now for Mythic gear, and they buy rating for titles and Arena gear. Really there is no such thing as “Welfare Gear” in any situation; the only real difference is the method to get the gear, be that they earned it legit via Rating / Grinding / Raiding OR Buying it RMT style like oh so many do.
Truly there is nothing wrong with PVP and PVE gear being equal in performance because it broadens the community in both PVE and PVP making cross play a lot more common and makes the PVE and PVP communities last longer because those players have something to do with their gear that’s not just Zug zug a boss or Zug zug other players.
The only real difference between sets should be minor stat allocation differences in things like hit values, light duty set bonuses, and so on.
Getting wild with gear and making gear to powerful is the real problem; not how the gear is got in a legit way.
This is extremely class dependent, and not universal. As healer its not big deal, as melee DPS its massive for rogues, ferals and Enhance. Warriors also suffer a bit, slightly less but a bit with lasts seasons gear in TBC. Lock / Mage / Priest does not matter a whole lot, and hunter; not sure did not play hunter in TBC ever. This is S1 to 2… But the difference between S2 and 3 is pronounced on all classes, and the S3 to S4 is kinda a big deal; if you get behind its gonna hold you back on ratings unless you’re R1 material; most arent so it’s for 99% of the population a real big deal.
Gear gating in an alleged “Skill based game” is a tragic thing; it fully undermines the point of having rating in the first place. Worse is if your spec of choice does not even have a set compatible with PVP. (Every class in TBC, Wrath and Cata)
Contrast this to Vanilla where there is no Rated PVP presently yet there is more class variety in PVP because there are more options due to the fact that the Meta is fast enough for burst to covercome stagnant HPS / DPS values. Resilience PVP breeds the need for offensive CD’s and offensive CD’s breeds the need for defensive CD’s, and so on the story goes until you get to MoP where every class kinda had some kinda version of most things; with exceptions and this is why MoP actually worked in this respect because everyone had all the tools they need to be competitive in different yet the same ways.
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If you set the best PvP gear (equal to BiS raid gear) at a high rating, then you would put new and less skilled players, and anyone who starts grinding mid season at a disadvantage. When it’s a single item like a weapon it isn’t usually gamebreaking and people can push into the necessary rating to catch up, but when BiS gear across the board is rating gated in practice you are forcing the majority of players to have to grind PvE to be competitive in PvP. This is the exact problem I mentioned in my quote.
You can 1: rating gate the best pvp gear which reproduces the top heavy environment you are apparently afraid of because it means to be competitive you are either a. already a top player than can grind high rating at a gear disadvantage, or b. spend an indeterministic period of weeks raiding and hoping to rng and your guild masters favor that you get all the necessary pieces to be competitive in rated pvp.
Or 2:
PvP gear is easily accessible and only requires you to play a certain amount of weekly games (no rating required). If this is equal to raid gear, you get the welfare epics problem in PvE.
Some separation of pvp and pve gear is necessary to create a fair playing field for people to compete. You don’t want too much bis gear to be high rating gated because that screws over new and lower skilled players, but you don’t want high end gear in pvp to invalidate raiding gear either.
You are making a mountain out of a molehill brother
There is nothing out of reach for anyone in a pve environment. It is not difficult for anyone to get good raid gear that’s good in PvP. You are thinking far too much into this.
Classic pvp is never going to be a blizzcon tournament environment. There is no need for this extreme focus on fairness. The game in and of itself is not fair to everyone by design. That’s what makes it cool. If someone degen camps prince nazjak their dedication sets their advantage greater than someone who doesn’t.
That’s how IRL works too
You don’t even need that much gear to pwn. You can stack your team with a bunch of rank 10 Andy’s who know what they’re doing and farm naxx teams
And which pieces exactly do you think you’d need to be competitive?
Can you identify any make or break pve items that are absolutely required to get for pvp?
Go ahead I’ll be waiting
Most pve gear that is good in pvp is just your regular run of the mill stuff you get raiding naturally. For example I like playing shaman because my pve gear is just as good as my pvp gear (rank 12) by BWL. There’s not much of a difference until you get to aq40 where the stormcallers pulls ahead very marginally. Lokamir is basically a rank14 weapon and claw of chromag is good enough. Warriors can use literally any raid two hander and be fine. Sure rank14 is bis but you aren’t gonna just lose games because your warrior is using the untamed blade. That’s the beauty of vanilla BGs, your team comp and synergy overcomes these extremely miniscule minute details
I have like 5 shamans atm. I could be in a wargame and swap out this bis toon for my SOM shaman with rank 12, ab dagger and a green lens of natures wrath and it’s barely going to change anything in game besides 200-300 damage on my cooldowns.
I could go on my rank 10 shaman with cold forged hammer and play the exact same game and the outcome will be similar because this is a battleground that is reliant on team synergy over minute details that arena requires more of
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Yup and contrast this with TBC where Resilience slows the game down so much in certain respects that weapons actually make a monumental difference to melee players.
A fact that his fella just wants to ignore; he think’s in TBC its fine to be a season behind, think’s I am afraid of ranked play or some insane thing and thinks that resilience is gods gift to PVP when he fully does not comprehend why it was added and never bothered to really consider that even fore a moment; only reflecting on his favorite time in WoW when he was doing well in PVP.
That is the same problem you see with all the past “Cata was the best in Season 11” crap I have read on the forums for near 10 years now, when I know full well how busted it was, because I actually played it. Or the idiots who though “oh Wrath was the apex of game design and PVP” when it was easily one of the worst; the only thing that kept Wrath on a high horse was that it was built off TBC’s success that was fully dependent on how insane good Vanilla was.
So many people humble themselves at the alter of gear gating, resilience and worship the creed of fools, yet here we are defending Vanilla; the game that is near as perfect an MMORPG as is possible.
Truly if there were to be Match Making in Vanilla, it should be done 3rd party and req the players who want to compete install an Addon that only activates if they’re VS another team who’s also using the addon; so that games are tracked 10 / 10 both sides, and this will show game duration, kills, everything. IMO something as intrusive as WCL so that the most subtle cheating is detected and DQ’s cheating teams, Win trading, etc.
Anything short of that we may as well forget about it because Blizzard does not punish cheaters; this is why I quit first RBG’s in WoD because Bailmos was fly hacking and DDoS’n us, and later in Arena people finally discovered conditional macros that have existed for a long time, but the popularity of that made the problems of it way worse.
Until Blizzard full on bans cheating and eliminates the components of the API that allow addons like spy, and conditional macros possible; there is no point to even playing any format of Blizzard hosted Rated PVP because it will be a cancer fest of trash cheaters, airplanes and boosts who love to get on the froums or in game ratings bash new players. I am almost suspecting the OP of being a boostee because of how he talks.
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You keep attributing this to me on repeat without any evidence lmao. In TBC classic, this was the first time I got back into WoW pvp at all since I quit the game in original cataclysm, I was not that great at arena during TBC classic. I managed to push high rating in WotLK after playing thousands of games during TBC.
Even tho I was significantly worse at the game during TBC classic, I enjoyed it’s pvp 1000x more than wrath. TBC was better than wrath because it was more methodical compared to WotLKs bursty meta, and WotLK was very homogenized compared to TBC which made a lot of the matches feel very samey… don’t even get me started on the insane amount of homogenization in cataclysm.
TBC was great because it had the vanilla classes and gameplay but refined and more balanced without relying on homogenization that every subsequent version of WoW does. It wasn’t perfect, but it was better than every other version of WoW that I have played, because it took steps towards balance while simultaneously keeping core RPG elements and class distinction from vanilla.
If this is so, then come play era; adapt to it and I think you may be surprised by how good it actually is.
The meta is faster than TBC, but its actually more diverse than TBC because there are so many practical and competitive builds.
IMO, if Classic+ is to be ant kind of success it should be base Vanilla with more content and Gear output stats levels limited to the BWL state of tune, AQ is a little much and Naxx is somewhat silly, but it is still incredibly fun despite not personally having full BiS.
Rather than wasting your time on junk like SoD, Cata and retail or pipe dreams like Classic+, come okay era and have a Good time.
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Agreed - come give Era pvp a chance and try to push whatever your fav class is to the limit.
Even on warlocks there are at least 4 good pvp specs (and tons of variations to each), you can wear pvp or pve gear and even in blues you are strong, and you have all the eng fun stuff - rocket boots, rocket helm, mc cap, grenades, reflectors.
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You and I have fully proven the myth of other classes who claim they need buffs for PVP false. Even better and more amazing is the crazy range of talent builds that actually work really well in Vanilla for PvP. The only time class and spec diversity has ever been so strong was in MoP because the classes while very different do have tons of homogenization also.
Vanilla is BiS.