Yoy said era battle grounds are solo shuffle. They clearly aren’t because you can’t solo shuffle in a group
One of the ideas I had for “rated” pvp going back to even og vanilla was simply a solo queu bg system that goes off simple win/loss values based upon your class or spec.
You don’t even need to put those players into a separate player pool (and fwiw I also would have had mixed horde/alliance teams with both factions in the same pool) , but rather better players will produce more wins over time.
Sod would have been a good time to test such a redesign.
Can instantly:
- Get people actually trying to win games instead of derping around in mid.
- Get people playing more than one bg (in this scenario the rated solo would be a random bg of the 3)
- Stop people from /afking out of games (since it’d cost them rating as a “loss”)
- Get me more willing to actually vote kick people who go afk in bgs (since it actually impacts them to lose)
- And since your rating is based on class/spec it’s a bit more balanced competively.
Now the downsides I can immediately think of:
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If you think bgs are toxic now, just wait until some noob being a baddie starts costing you points.
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Point #1, but preemptively bias against “bad” specs. That ret doing rated would unironically likely get mass report banned before an actual afk rogue who is pretending to guard/ninja bases just sitting in stealth somewhere.
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Dividing by specs could be weird for hybrid specs, and maybe some cheesy gamesmanship to more easily get rating on a weaker spec that isn’t that much worse than the meta variant
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There’d be a stronger incentive to play the best race for your class/spec.
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We are totally in agreement here - and with MMR - anyone who goes into the BG just to ‘clash and have fun’, etc. would very quickly end up in game with similar minded people (albeit at a low MMR but that’s fine since MMR is about winning objective and not k/d). I think that would be great for everyone.
A lot of the toxicity comes when you have two different groups of players - those trying to win objectives and play seriously and those just trying to mess around and have fun.
The people trying to play seriously, are having fun when the games are difficult, high-skill, and everyone is playing objective. But in contrast, those just trying to zug around - are only having fun when people aren’t playing seriously. So putting these two groups together always causes one to be unhappy.
No because the “serious” players didn’t respect the proper etiquette for random based BGs, which is to expect randomness from it. The “zuggers” are doing what’s expected in random BGs; whatever it is they want to do.
This is why I don’t believe kicking of any kind should be allowed or it should be restricted with nothing more than a removal of said content…
Meaning that if a random group doesn’t like a particular player, they should be able to remove him from the dungeon, BG, whatever, and nothing more.
No debuff or penalty for being removed; no reporting for sabotaging, nothing.
Respect the randomness from random/solo players.
If you were to queue WSG daily for the next 6 months you will realize that there are some players that constantly queue and try to win. There are also players in discords that do wargames to have good WSG games.
The random noob (especially ones that don’t want to improve) that wonders in here and there is insignificant. If they ever add MMR, they will be rock bottom MMR playing with other noobs and bots and that is fine. Or they could never queue and that’s okay with me too.
What’s important is designing a system that creates good pvp games for pvp players.
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I don’t think there are enough players to actually separate queues by rating anymore. Anyone good will just sit in queue forever.
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We will never have enough players if there are 1-3 pve players / noobs greifing every game.
Higher quality games will lead to more people queueing. This is true both both sides - more low skill players will queue to just mess around and more high skill players will queue to push their rating and have good games.
There’s the authoritarianism I was talking about.
You’re the one that determines who’s pulling their weight and who isn’t?
Out of the pure disdain I feel for you, I wouldn’t pull my weight either if you were my teammate, only to see you lose.
That has literally never happened in the 18 years rated pvp has existed and we have a mere fraction of the people for classic.
There just aren’t enough people, especially at rating, to have consistent games.
No. Their impact to winning the game does.
You stated earlier in this thread you have no desire to work with the team strategy in the WSG and will do whatever you want. Already counted you as not impactful.
Strategy in WSG is pretty standard. If you feel that teams are constantly authoritarian against you i take it as you are probably just not being useful.
That would work as long as the average team rating is within 1 or 2 points of the other team no matter the game. This way you can have a mix of high MMR players and low MMR players so that new players can see and learn from better players. This is actually one of the cool parts about Vanilla’s PVP.
My point is, that you and your ilk are the ones making those determinations.
I didn’t state anything of the kind; but assuming I did as it is something I might say, maybe I felt that the team strategy being employed wasn’t sound strategy and I didn’t want to contribute by doing the wrong thing.
What strategy? Some META thought up by the nerd-ilk culture like you, such as icy-veins?
That you now feel the authority to impose in random group settings?
I think that about sums up all my points regarding why MMR would help put players that want to play as a team together.
Here is a guide if you care to play WSG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BldVX-FbPos
Great ideals.
But the reality of the situation is, I’m going to play however I want, and risk getting banned by people like you as a result.
What did I tell you about authoritarianism?
I don’t care how sound that strategy from that video might be…
I don’t care to watch it…
And it’s probably something I didn’t already know…
And it probably doesn’t address the issues with random grouping. I’d have to see for myself; but the point I’m making to you is, I don’t care to or need to.
Nobody wants to force you to improve and learn the basics of WSG, that’s totally up to you.
But you cannot assume that others do not know those things. So if they are all playing with that knowledge, and you are running around doing random stuff, to them you stick out like a sore thumb.
A pve corollary would be like a healer pulling mobs and trying to tank or dps because they don’t feel like healing.
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You go into random BGs assuming everyone knows how to play?
What ridiculousness is this?
What is your point if you have one to make?
Bad analogy. Don’t really feel like explaining why it is either.
I’ll post this for you and anyone else because it seems a very common argument that people think arenas are synonymous with skill or that warcraft should be balance around 3’s or other variations of this is skillful or not- be it “classic doesn’t take skill” or “mmorpgs don’t take skill only shooters/fighting games/MOBAs do” Akrios’ farewell letter is relevant and great.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wowservers/comments/4re0np/akrios_goodbye_letter/
Aside from that: MOBAs does MMR and ranked a lot better but even that has problems, a League of Legends support player can do a FOTM pick or two and make it to high rating but suck completely at any other aspect of the game. Classic wow has a deceptively high skill cap, retail WoW may be much better balanced but it not enjoyable or skillful to what a lot of other people want, example being Tekken 7/8 homogeneous, enjoyable, balanced, high skill. Same with classic WoW. Retail WoW is not.
It seems a lot of this is ignored or glossed over by people. I’m flabbergasted people toot their horns about like Xdrain said, the illusion of competition with these rated bgs/arenas, (though we may differ on some things) and pretending the imbalanced nature of group pvp and a big factor of who you know and putting a rating behind it somehow makes the pvp better or high skill or ‘matter’
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Its a team sport so everyone is supposed to pull their own weight or at the very least contribute as best they can. Maybe you can get a free pass as a brand new player doing their first ever WSG but after that no one has any excuses.
I half agree with some of the points you made in regard to premades but its all a moot point since they’re allowed.
I get what Laz and Xdrain are saying but I only partially agree with them too. If premades are just a bunch of account sharing gold buyers, telling people to “git gud” and/or form their own premade is more insult than advice.
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I wouldn’t bother attempting to have a discussion with this clown.
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How does one determine one is pulling their weight?