Classic is nerfed on beta

I see the benefits of 1.12 to the Honor chasers. Personally I’d play either, and I’m interested in if they’ll make a “PVP Weekends 1.5” version, but we’re getting 1.12. That’s a decision they made months ago.

You keep leaning on that “it’s the decision they made”; think for your self man.

Resting on the status quo is really lazy, and lacks any kind of imagination.

You keep acting like this is an unmade decision and our debate matters to Blizzard.

It’s not, and it doesn’t. We’re getting 1.12 and have been ever since they posted “We’re giving you 1.12”.

You still aren’t getting it, it’s not about time, it’s not about money, its not about anything other than they didn’t see a need to keep it around at the time. It’s really not that hard to understand.

It happens all the time in business.

I’m sorry, who’s deciding what a ‘compelling reason’ is? Personally, I find the fact that there’s a version of AV entirely unrepresented in a museum piece to be a compelling reason. No other piece of content went through the kinds of changes AV did. 1.11 AV would do well to be represented in a TBC Classic server, which devs have indicated an openness toward, so this seems an opportune time to have this conversation as that news was made public after the news of 1.11 AV.

Additionally, if you are grinding honor in any AV for ranking – my understanding is you are doing it wrong. AV is filler for HKs while you wait for WSG or AB to pop.

Unless you are indicating that AV can be consistently completed extremely quickly in 1.11.

One that the majority of players get behind.

After 1.12 it was a primary method of honor grinding.

How do any of us know we do not already have that?

Let’s let the conversation flow rather than try to shut it down under claim of information we do not have access to.

Interesting. Nothing changed for honor gains in 1.12 – Nethaera posted that more people were let into ranks, but no change to the gains themselves. What, then, changed to make AV more attractive to grinding honor in 1.12, specifically?

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The primary reason for AV being bad for honor was twofold.

  1. Honor has Diminishing Returns. So if you keep killing the same 40 people over and over, after 10 kills, a given target yields no honor. Playing against the same 40 people for 8 hours stopped giving honor after the first 30 minutes or so. The contribution points for a given player were 0CP.

  2. The games lasted so long, you never got the Honor bonus for completing the Battleground. Because of this, WSG and AV which had far shorter games, were the priority.

This changed with AV 1.11, because the primary activity was PVP and the boss kill, instead of all the other features like summoning champions and ram riders.

Far shorter games meant that a) You kept cycling the 40 people, and b) you actually got the honor bonus. 40 people in 30 minutes is far more likely to give you high CPs than 10 people in 30 minutes in WSG, or 15 people in AB.

Ahh, so the gains came from 1.11’s changes, but were main-streamed by 1.12, thank you.

So, the indication here – please confirm my understanding – is that games were reliably quick enough to outpace the honor from WSG and AB?

“1.12” is really just a moniker for 1.11 and 1.12. Most people asking for 1.5 actually want anything from 1.5 to 1.8. After that, in 10 and 11, it was lots of nerfs and reducing of PVE content.

Not so much “outpace” but to make it on par with them. Fast AB games were better, but you couldn’t be guaranteed of a fast game unless it was Premade vs PuG.

That’s fine, I’m aware I can be a bit exacting, but I did want to confirm my understanding, not trap you with version numbers or anything. Clarity and all that. :slight_smile:

Sounds a little strange for it to become the primary method, then, personally, but that’s fine – my honor grinding at the time was incidental to my enjoyment and I wasn’t looking up what was efficient or not.

So, you would say that the minimizing of all the previous features of the BG – the various summonings, buffings, and all that – drastically changed the way AV was played?

Does another version, one solely available during Vanilla WoW, not deserve representation in a museum piece designed around Vanilla WoW… warts and all?

Do you believe there is any other piece of content which was changed as much – and as drastically – over the course of Vanilla’s lifespan, that it’s even comparable to any other content in that regard?

When has Blizzard ever balanced perfectly? When everything is 30 minute games, and there’s 40 targets instead of 15, CPs are always higher because you have less diminishing returns. That’s just how it came out.

To some extent. A large part of it was also the more experience people gained over time. Zergs happened in earlier versions too, when people realised that all the PVE elements gave them no honor, and they were a Premade vs a PuG.

Even if we got 1.5, a lot of Zerging would still happen, because that’s how you get Honor the fastest.

I totally agree, in as much as there should be an opportunity to play 1.5 from time to time and experience the 48 hour games.

Molten Core, The Hinterlands, Searing Gorge.

Pfft, never, but what I meant is I found it more strange the community would switch to a ‘primary’ method that doesn’t guarantee itself something better than the old one, that’s all.

I suppose that’s fair, I did ask if anything was ‘changed’ as much, though to my recollection Hinterlands and the Gorge had quest hubs added – I can’t say I remember the MC changes, as raiding wasn’t all that interesting to me at the time. I was a feral druid and wasn’t smart enough to pretend I wasn’t. And I don’t mind the addition of content so much as the removal – but as I said, fair points. I’m not sure I have particularly good answers to the latter two as they exist within the world, and not in their own instances.

That said… Rather than argue that the deed is done, why not just show more support toward both consistently? I’m aware you support the option of both – so rather than tell people to stop, because no one’s provided compelling reasons, why not join us in asking Blizz for more options? Perhaps I’ve come across poorly with it myself. To be clear, my support for another version of AV does not necessitate the retiring of 1.11 – I admit that I’d prefer other versions, I found them much more fun on a personal level – but I’m fairly certain that so long as other versions were available, these threads would die a swift and relatively peaceful death.

There would be new threads about how the BG will be split too much, but at least the community can collectively resolve that problem on its own.

Let’s do it! #MoreOptionsButStillNoChanges! (Riskiest thing I’ve ever said on this forum.)

People switch to whatever gives them the best gains.

Prior to 1.11, WSG was the “primary” method, with AB close behind, and no-one with any serious hopes of High Warlord did AV.

MC was nerfed half a dozen times over its life.

Because the deed is done.

That was posted in March. Not 2 years ago. Since then we’ve had a 1.12 test weekend.

We’re not getting anything else changed at this point for launch.

I’m one of the people who keeps proposing the 1.5 Weekends, and getting shot down by “NO WE WANT 1.5”. How about you get on board with a viable way of having both?

Fair enough – it wasn’t my area of interest, I probably skimmed those parts of the patch notes every time.

Wait – I don’t really care about launch. I’m here for the long haul, and banking on the devs saying they were open to the option of Classic+ and / or TBC servers and beyond. Before I get stoned for that – adding in previous versions of AV is, to me, well within the boundaries available for Classic, with or without a +, as previous versions of AV existed within Vanilla and are therefore fitting for a museum.

I am on board with that, I just can’t speak for others. And personally, I’d be fine with 1.5, 1.8, and 1.11 versions, because to me, it has always been about preserving history, and these are the three major versions of AV that existed in Vanilla. (Iiiii don’t really expect all three versions to get made, but I can dream!)

To me, the simplest method would be having all versions open to be able to be queued into. Or even just a ‘Any Version’ option to queue into. The community will sort itself out in that regard – some AVs will die naturally or simply pop less frequently. To me – that’s perfectly fine. Holiday weekends are alright as well, I suppose, but I’ve never been one to enjoy taking away options.

Here’s the thing – no matter what other pre-1.11 AV’ers say, I’m with you on this. More versions is better, no matter how they’re implemented. And while people may disagree with you, they do respect you. I respect you. And I think others are willing to listen to you more. I’m sure you feel like a broken record at times already – but highlighting that you support more options, would, IMO, go a long way. You may, in fact, be better able to bridge the gap between 1.11 AVers and pre-1.11 AVers than I’ll ever be, because I can get a bit aggravated… with… certain… Z-based people…

I think we’ve always been on the same side of things to a degree – I’m just more vocal toward the other options and pointing out the merits of other versions, while forgetting to mention I’m not against 1.11, I just don’t prefer it – but that I desperately think we need at least one of the earlier versions included because of the historical significance of the early design.

Only if you’re horribly bad and can’t win a BG.

I’m genuinely curious. Is that why you’re so pro 1.12 at the cost of the authentic overall experience? You think only the “private server” players want things like a re-tune? You obviously don’t like them very much - and for good reason. But, there are many people who are championing 1.12. Each falls in a particular category. I’m just trying to figure out who’s in which one.

Did Blizzard say that “We’re not getting anything else changed at this point for launch?” Do you work for Blizzard? If so, maybe they should put in writing. Until then, I and others will continue to be vocal for change.
Look what happened with the “Wall of No”…it came crumbling down.

This would water down the queues so much that no-one would have an enjoyable experience.

That’s why I’ve said specific Weekends would be the best option.