Funny thing is, I never argued against that. I actually agreed several times in this thread Warriors could stand to be buffed. My ORIGINAL comment was only there to combat the idea that because ret’s got changed, other classes now have a right to cry and demand for buffs to their class/spec.
Just because paladin’s are over represented doesn’t mean they don’t need a buff to their ONLY dps spec. Even with the buff, they’re only doing marginally better, maybe an additional 400-500dps increase, and they are still considerably under any S or even A tier spec… heck, don’t even think they’re B tier.
They do need buffs. But the healer tank scene is far worse than the ret dps scene, so why buff rets, and make a big song and dance about its desperately needed and no other changes should be made.
Well, why rets? Outside of offering a buff to their only DPS spec, about balancing around T10. Even with this buff, ret paladins are still doing far worse than they were Ulduar in OG Wrath. This is due to the ilvl buffs. Someone named Belisarius also broke this down and explained this earlier on in this post.
The only ones making a big song and dance are the paladin’s wanting the buff, and no one is saying (or at least I’m not) that no other changes should be made. I have no issues with buffs being given to classes and specs if there’s a good enough reason to give it to them.
what about a different class like warrior where their only viable spec, fury, is doing the same damage as paladin’s worst spec, but warriors also bring 1% of the utility a ret can?
and if you say “they scale” well, so does every other class, including rets, to the point that even in Bis ICC gear warriors might be top 4. In Ulduar for example, most classes are very close to warrior dps gain and even assassination rogues, an already S+ tier 2 button class, gains more dps than fury warriors do.
It could also be a DK and a Druid, so yeah another UH DK and a Balance Druid would be great, since we don’t have a Boomy. But realistically, if it’s a 10m, then pally is the only class that feels good to stack, so an hpal/prot, and ret would be fine, while 3 of pretty much any other class probably would be less helpful than detrimental.
I think this is a fair point. The arguments are essentially the same al be it applied to different roles.
For the record this whole mélange of class and spec balance debate is entirely what I was afraid of if Blizzard started ad hoc messing with class balance. They shouldn’t have let the Genie out of the bottle. We’re going down the rabbit hole now. If Bliz though buffing Ret was going to shut people up they had a loose grip on reality.
Even with the buff, they only gained about 400 dps, and that’s nothing… they’re still preforming lower than any S tier, A tier or even B tier. Secondly, with Ulduar Ilvl buffs, ret’s are not as powerful as they were in OG Wrath. They’ve dropped in performance due to the Ilvl buff change. Now more classes are doing much better with DPS because of the Ilvl increase, which brought them up, but pushes ret down the ladder. Yes warriors are also being pushed down the ladder, but warriors were never great in Ulduar, ret’s used to be. This is another reason why they had received a buff.
I’m not against any class getting buffed if there’s a valid enough reason. I feel ret’s had a valid reason, and warrior do too. I never said they shouldn’t.
I agree, I think Blizzard to recreate what was truly happening in original Wrath should nerf warlocks, unholy DKs and rogues by 30-40%, that would bring the game back in alignment with reality somewhat
The scaling argument is the funniest. Fury warriors need full ICC bis to get this outrageous scaling everyone talks about, and even then they will not be the top dps spec. Ret paladins according to every ret crying on the forums are based off having a 2 piece t10 set bonus. Imagine needing to get 2 pieces of tier in ICC then telling someone they shouldn’t get buffed when they will need literally every item they own replaced.
The other piece of information you need to take into account when looking into this is how many total DPS, heal, and tank spots are available in a raid. Let’s say that you run two tanks & 5 healers. That means you have 18 DPS spots available.
Using your math that means on average warlocks represent 16.66% of the DPS spots in a raid while ret only represents a measly 4.27%.
I don’t think any ret paladin cares how Blizzard changes prot, or holy. Clearly the information you’ve presented shows how much stronger they are at these roles compared to the other available options.
Rets asking for buffs, and rets receiving a buff meaning prot & holy need nerfs are two separate conversations. You should advocate for the change you want to see not under the guise of “well now that rets have recieved buffs”, the conversation should have always been “prot & holy paladins are too strong and here’s why”
But that same metric, feral druids represent 11% of the tank spots, while paladins represent 52%. The difference between feral druids and Prot Paladins is bigger than the different between warlocks and rets.
Rets can be buffed, sure. But for blizzard to come out and say that is the only thing that need changing is stupid.