Class Representation and Balance - World of Paladins

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
102

So I have done some more digging into the favouritism shown by this change. Once again, not against the change, but against how it was delivered, and the context of it being delivered, and the fact that blizzard sees ret dps is a grievous balance issue when there aren’t others.

Doing some simple probability models number of (Ulduar logs of roll vs over logs of that roll with the amount of rolls available in each raid) I got some pretty telling results.

The chance of 1 of your 18 DPS spots being a paladin is 55%, true the lowest of all classes. followed by priest at 67% and warrior at 73%.

lets compare tanks! You are %77 likely to have at least 1 paladin tank in ulduar. Out of 2 spots, from 4 classes spots. That’s pretty damn high. The next highest tank is DK, at 40%. The chance you have a warrior is 35% and a feral druid is 12%.
Actually the chance you have Any tank that’s not a paladin tank only 72%.

Alright, lets check out proportionality -
Every 25man raids takes on average 0.77 DPS Paladins. They take, on average 3.02 Warlocks. So ret, its about 25.8% of the most represented dps. Warlocks in General make up

On the other hand tanks
Every raid takes 1.05 Prot Paladins and 0.12 Feral Tanks
Eeek! feral tanks have 11.41% representation compared to Prot Paladins.

Healing: 1.92 Holy Paladins. Compared to the lowest 0.84 Resto druids and 0.88 Resto Shamans

But hey, Ret representation being 1.6% lower than shadow priests and 2.9% lower than warriors. While Prot paladins make up 52.5% of tank and 38.5% of healers isn’t the slightest an issue.

TLDR:

On the top end of all three rolls, you have Warlock DPS, Paladin Tank, Paladin Healer.

In Tanks, MASSIVE Paladins have a bigger lead over other tanks WAYY more than warlocks have over other dps.

In Healing its the same, with the amount of paladins massively more than any other healing class.

On the bottom end you have DPS Paladin, Tank Druid and Healer Druid. and the difference between Tank druid and the second lowest tank is far greater than rets and the 2nd lowest dps. Even greater still is the difference between feral tanks and prot paladins and ret paladins and warlocks.

So YES. This targeting of this buff is pretty BS. By any metric healer and Tank scene is far more unbalanced, and by any meteoric the difference between dps and tanks is far greater.

How can blizzard say they need to buff ret paladins and say that Feral tanks don’t need one.

1 Like
103

If you did any digging you would’ve run into the post they did previously where they literally told rets to “just roll holy or prot” which is of course simply not an option for a lot of rets.

So they brought it upon themselves.

104

Math. Its hard. I understand this.
Ret representation is 21% lower then spriest, and 33% lower then warrior dps.

105

How is it more or less of an option than other classes in other roles. Its more of an option than any other class in the game has. There’s more Paladin Spots in a raid than any other class. There’s more Prot Paladins, than any other tank, there’s more H Pals than any other healer.

How are rets worse off than Feral Tanks?

1 Like
106

This has confused me… it seems like we’re fighting about the same thing? My disagreement was only based on your words of can’t vs won’t change their spec… my whole thnig was, you can’t change a paladin’s spec without changing their role… you said that’s not true… but it is. If you change a prot paladin’s spec to holy… is he still prot? No, his role changed. If you change a holy to a ret, is he still a healer? no. THAT’S what I’m disagreeing with here.

107

You don’t understand how healer and tank roles in a raid may be filled but a hunter going to survival instead of beast mastery doesn’t shift this concept at all? O_o

108

Representation is not probability. Of the 18 dps spots there is a 55% chance 1 spot is for a DPS paladin, 67% a spriest and 73% chance 1 spot is for a dps warrior. Comparatively Paladins make up 4.33% of DPS, priests 5.95% and warriors 7.16%. DPS Paladins make up 27.2% less of the raid than DPS priest.
That’s still not as big a difference between the bottom two tanks
But lets compare prot warrior and feral druid. 34.8% and 11.6% respectively. Druids have a 66.6% difference between them and warriors the second lowest represented tank.

How can ret paladins need buffs more than feral druids?

3 Likes
109

I like being a team player, so yeah, I do have a prot and holy set for rainy days. Hell, yesterday I dropped raid for a ranged because we were too melee heavy.

I simply resent the implication some have made that Ret paladins are selfish, when I have places my guilds needs over my own at times.

110

Of cause, but how is ret being terrible dps different to feral being a terrible tank?

1 Like
111

Prot paladins just make every tank look terrible, feral is pretty respectable as an OT to a prot pala

112

Or just have 2 Prot paladins. Also, feral is the worst tank by a huge margin atm. Their lack of strong personal defensives causes issues. As evident by their measly 1 in 10 tanks representation. There’s 5 prot paladins for every feral tank.

113

And in both of those scenarios, the extra healer/tank could be a paladin. Gonna turn down their DPS?

I would also refer to the above:

114

we did two prot paladins the first week, the bear is fine now i think, we had him tank algalon this week as the OT and he seemed stable, he just needed gear, we don’t have 6 prot paladins so running 2x prot pala per raid isn’t really feasible

115

Rets do OK damage with gear, there have been twice as many Rets in 25man Algalon kills as guardian druids.

I still am yet to hear why rets are so much less balanced than the healing and tanking meta.

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116

Most players are probably dps players who are concerned about their parses, there’s a much smaller amount of players who are tank/healer mains and only a % of those care about parses, they mostly care if people die or live or if they die or live in the case of the tanks.

There is no doubt there is a huge huge balance issue in both tanks and healers, prot paladins are by far the best tanks and disc priest/holy paladins absolutely overpower all other healers in 99% of situations. I have genuinely no idea what the goal was with prot paladins. Warriors need 2 talent points and a glyph to make their shield wall into an inferior version of the baseline paladin shield wall that even holy paladins have access to, its silly.

2 Likes
117

It’s because they were very persistent in complaining about it. Helps when your class population is triple some others…

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118

Maybe other classes want to be brought to raids on any of their three available specs cough warrior cough

Paladins are overrepresented as a class. They don’t need buffs.

119

Would honestly just settle for some warrior-exclusive raid utility that guilds could atleast justify bringing atleast more than 1 warrior with.

The state warriors are in is a complete joke, Blizzard is honestly telling us they want every class to have a viable DPS spec yet Arms is the worst PvE spec and Fury does like maybe 200-400 more DPS than Ret.

The numbers don’t lie - NOBODY brings warrior tanks. Those tank representation numbers are complete comedy - the tank balancing has been a complete failure by blizzard.

2 Likes
120

Your argument is very similar to one a certain Kanye made about a certain race of people who seem to be disproportionately wealthy.

How many warlocks did they bring? Guilds doing Algalon right now is an incredibly small sample size (like two guilds on my server). The overall numbers for mediocre guilds and pugs suggest that warriors, DKs and druids can tank just fine. And healers? We actually have the hardest time finding decent holy paladins (most of them are terrible).

I still had a raid spot as ret and I still will after the buff.

121

Once ICC comes out: Fire Mages and Fury Warr OP nerf!!!