My argument is more about the state of the game overall, Ret was never like this mate. I’ve made other posts, i’ll discuss this link again, if you type this into google search “engadget icc analysis by spec”, you’ll see a link to ICC 25 man average and top dps at the time from World of Logs, the Warcraft Logs of the time. Ret was B+ - A Tier dps always throughout the entire expansion.
They can literally do whatever they want and you’re going to keep playing this game. They don’t need to do anything.
They can - sure. I wonder if that argument worked for you when it came to Ret? Before they buffed you? A pretty average buff btw.
The question isn’t can they, it is should they. But yeah they can do whatever. It’s their game.
You’ll come to find out in life that you’re more likely to get that you want if you don’t try to make your conversation into an argument and you stay objective and to the point while being respectful.
There is this saying - You attract more bees with honey than vinegar.
I’m clearly still subbed so uh… Yeah I was going to keep playing ret paladin even if they didn’t get any buffs between now and when I get to shadowmourne cancel macro.
I agree and I think I have been objective and respectful. You made the point that Blizzard can do as they will and don’t have to be obliged to do balance properly and I asked you to look at that same argument if it were delivered to you - if you were on the rough end of who Blizzard capriciously decide to listen to. Fair courteous and objective comparison.
Put yourself in my shoes with the argument you made. You’re happy for Blizzard to do whatever they want to my detriment but it sounds like your not happy for them to do so to your detriment.
I’m asking for fair treatment. But sure Blizzard aren’t obliged to be fair, “they don’t ‘need’ to do anything” - I take your point.
This is not meant to come off as a personal attack by the way…I’m simply stating that it cuts both ways. Fairness demands that Blizzard approach ‘balance’ in a comprehensive way and not by popular vote or whim. That is, if they want to be fair.
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ahh the parse shaming game. best way to advance a conversation. but i mean i guess thats all anyone ever has when they don’t have anything worth adding to the conversation.
You have to weigh the opinions of people who play this game based on their ability to play this game. If you just listened to the balance changes every single blue parser would like to see in this game you’d run it into the ground.
Simply playing this game and posting on these forums doesn’t mean you have the experience to provide useful feedback on certain topics.
It’s an incredibly relevant piece to the conversation because it allows you to understand how much a person actually understands what they’re talking about.
No one should have to listen to balance change opinions from an UH DK who can’t even currently beat a ret in DPS.
Imagine how much farther behind you’re going to be after these buffs.
Understanding game balance is more about mathematics than play skill. Plenty of game coders are blue parsers - heck I am at the moment.
You could argue that innumerate people have no place talking about class balance… In fact you shouldn’t be allowed to talk about it without a degree in mathematics or computer science ;p
At the end of the day this is not great for conversation. Best approach is to examine everyone’s comments on the comments own merits and test it accordingly. In what is an essentially anonymous forum, no-one gets to claim expert status and no comment should be taken as a given fact without testing it. Parsing certainly doesn’t qualify you. Parsing simply means you have good reaction times, and a dedicated guild.
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ah yes because someone parses blue they’re instantly wrong gotcha so they could be right but naw they blue parse they are instantly wrong. never mind that. but someone that parses a 99 says the same thing they’re instantly right even if the same thing is echoed by that blue parser. see the irony there? two things can be true. someone parses a blue and they can be right. so stop getting stuck on the parses.
yes like you. oh goody i get to talk about this then because i have two of those computer science degrees.
you know i approach the conversation. i look at hte data in front me. yes ret sucks. i understand that i have known that for about a week after naxx dropped. i didn’t like hearing that. but i also went back and looked at the data that was available to me from the one place i could look back at. wrath its self. there wasn’t anything really outstanding that caused their dps to be the way it is right now. the one thing i could argue is that they lost seal of blood and martyr. back then for an OG alliance class, horde was definitely getting the better version of the class at least with ret? since they exclusively had seal of blood. and by all accounts martyr just sounded and read like it was a scuffed seal. it was probably better than everything else they had but thats not the argument. the biggest problem that a lot of ret paladins have spewed and i’m guilty of it to some extent is saying that they are centered around and tuned around a 2pc from a tier that isn’t even out. and that wasn’t even in the patch notes for the ability changes. 3.3 all the way to 3.3.5 show zero changes to the way the spec operated yet they were designed around their spec. is it wrong to call someone a liar based on the patch notes that doesn’t show this in the 3.3.0 to 3.3.5 patch notes? in fact they received ZERO tuning in any of the 3.3 patches that would impact their dps positively or negatively. the last change they made to them was in 3.2.2 that would impact their pve performance. i’m tired of the lies that get spread about them saying they are centered around their t10 2pc. it needs to end. yes their gameplay and dps improves with it, but that doesn’t mean they were designed around it.
Good for you, same here (well one undergrad and one post). Thing is, no-one has any way of verifying that. So, anyone who trusts claims on this anonymous forum without testing them for themselves is going to get some pretty inaccurate info.
Case in point is when people go on about what the meta will be in ICC like it’s an established fact … Lol
If people are interested they should be checking the Sims for themselves. Looking at the modelling. Trying to understand what data is known and what is being approximated or guessed at.
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Certainly, but you can’t be completely devoid of skill to be able to fully comprehend how balance changes will influence the game you’re balancing. This is seen in Esports with games like Dota 2 when a player figures out something that is too powerful after balance changes while the person who implemented the change didn’t see, or fully understand how their change would actually influence gameplay at a higher skill level than they are capable of playing at. Happens all the time.
take it on good faith. simple as that. you say you have one then i’ll take you at your word.
i think based on the simming and data analysis that has been done has been pretty much ironed out. there are a lot that have been caught distorting simming for specs. not a good luck for those people. but i think we have a good road map.
i agree with this.
better start firing the blizz staff because they don’t even play the games they balance. thats not a dig thats just me stating a fact.
Right but not playing a game you help develop doesn’t mean you don’t play it because you aren’t skilled enough to play it well. They could simply just not want to play this game despite being very capable at playing it. I used to love playing magic the gathering before I started to work at a local game store and it became my job. I imagine I would feel similarly if I was working on a video game and a lot of my time was already spent thinking about it. For me it became less relaxing to play and just made me think about work.
There is literally a website available that you could spend a little bit of time looking at if you cared to play this game better. Valuing the opinion of someone on balance changes who doesn’t even care enough to put effort into learning how to play their own class better is often times just going to provide you false information.
Play the game how you want to play it but don’t expect people to think you have any idea what you’re talking about if you can’t play the game well.
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Mostly. And the Sims you can run now are a lot more accurate than back when WoTLKC was being released and a lot of streamers we’re making predictions.
And here’s the rub, people aren’t generally commenting on Sim data taken last week, they’re commenting on Sims run 6 months ago.
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i understand what you’re saying. but the problem is they make the sweep changings not here in this sandbox but in the past and didn’t think two things of it like it wouldn’t impact that spec as badly as it would. come to find out oopsie we kind of broke it entirely for a patch maybe two raid tiers. this has been the MO of blizzard its entire time i’ve played their games. this is one of a couple of things. Laziness in their approach to balancing. not a good look. over reacting to what they are seeing in the data they have available to to them. still not a good look. or a lack of caring or willing to put the necessary care toward the game its self it needs. i really want to say its apathy but i think thats far less of a thing for most of the devs there i’m sure there are some. but i think they are the minority. either way of these things are not a good look. there are very few times i see them surgically address classes and when they do its classes like locks mages and a few other dev preferred specs/classes they like to address. if its a class they couldn’t care less about it’ll be hard core kneecapped. which is a bad position to be in.
the later half of your statement i have no idea on. i don’t watch streamers. i would tune into graysens stream to do raids with him. he randomly one night invited me in the first two weeks of naxx. so i had to have that stream open to pay attention to his call outs. not like it matters for a dps its just don’t F it up.
but for your first half of your first statement. you are absolutely correct about the sims and the data analysis we can sift through today that we couldn’t do 10-13 years ago. again i think the theory crafting of that era of OG wrath was flawed and people were doing dumb stupid things. now, its far more refined and we can get data faster and find whats the best and most ideal load outs. plus gear some gear from ulduar hms will be bis going into ToC and stick with you until ToGC which will be superb.
I have no issue with the “buffing rets.”
My issue is that out of all the massive balance issues right now, this is the most important one to fix, and the only one blizzard wants to fix.
What makes “ret not competitive” way more important than hpala op, Prot pal op, lock op and terrible warrior representation overall.
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We used to use a program called Rawr to run sims back in OG WOTLK. Sure it was probably more inaccurate than what we have today, but we definitely had simming tools that helped you figure out what your BIS was, and what gear to wear out of your currently available options.
I disagree with this. Only because I was right, they can’t change their spec without changing their role. They have holy, as a healer, Protection as a tank and Ret as DPS. Changing their spec from ret to something else changes their entire role as well. Instead of dps they become a healer or tank. Not that it really matters, just wanna clarify, if they wanna DPS they CAN’T change there role… literally. They have no other dps spec.
the balancing is quite fine. boohoo ret is at the bottom not everyone can be at the top. right now there are a few other classes that aren’t at the top either. oh and what isn’t making ret competitive right now? i’ll wait.
you can disagree all you like. my statement is fact. there isn’t anything you could list off that would yank either prot or hpals down. nor anything you could offer that would yank rets from being bottom to middle of the pack. btw, by doing so you put someone even further down the charts whining for buffs. they will not do grand overhaul and tuning to either of the three specs. its not a matter whether they can’t its they won’t. you fail to understand they won’t do this. they aren’t going to change the “role” either unfortunately some dps are utility belt dps. there isn’t anything wrong with this. you are still wrong. in your next few statements. and some times a spec is just bad. that isn’t an argument. i can’t change to another spec. just because that spec is there doesn’t immediately mean it needs to be a middle of the road spec. or even great. some times that spec gets to be booty. show me how they were good in toc or togc. i’ll wait as well. because this is effectively them in p3.