I mean, that reasoning can be extended to literally any non-human lady, really
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nah I would say you can say night elven draenei gnome orc woman etc. But you cant refer to a female bear as a woman.
I always thought of the character as being genderfluid, but that may be a bit too complex for Wowâs audience to encompass.
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I get you. I wasnât trying to say you were being disingenuous about when it appeared. I was just looking at the material in comparison to my earlier argument and responding.
Westfall as a whole seems to come and go as lore pleases. There are always these threads of political intrigue regarding the human kingdoms that get quickly resolved or forgotten. Westfallâs Defias, the refugees because of the War against the Lich king, and Cataclysm all provided some insight into the life of human commoners and the crown. Shaw and VanCleef are perfect vehicles to explore these questions.
Maybe VanCleef could show up in Shadowlands too? Shaw meets Alexston and VanCleef? It could be connected to Anduin confronting the ghosts of Stormwindâs past. We already have Bolvar here. Varain as well if he isnât gone for good.
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I would love some sort of resolution about Westfallâs current state, especially Shadows Rising hinted that itâs still in a bad state, at least in some parts.
Edwin VanCleef would a very interesting character to encounter in Shadowlands, for the reasons you point out. I know that Blizzard seems very intent on focusing on big psuedo-death-knight stuff with Anduin right now, but I would much rather see him dealing with issues at home in Stormwind, including some of the messes left by his predecessors, and carrying that over into the Shadowlands by having him meet Edwin VanCleef would be interesting, I think, for both of them.
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You canât even quote-mine me properly, which is especially embarrassing since the quote is right there. Iâm also saying youâre wrong about me.
Re-read it.
I called the retcons âham-fistedâ and made a distinction between genuine support and virtue-signaling.
I donât think every trans person is so insecure that they canât get through life if they donât see themselves represented in a fictional work⌠plus thereâs already Pelagos and heâs fine (I hope he gets ascended, especially after we went to the trouble of building the Kyrians a new altar and helped his friend Kleia ascend).
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Heâs also dead and a Shadowlands-only character. We will never seem him again after Shadowlands is over like every other expansion-only character. Not Trans Icon Pelagos, Lesbian Couple Accuser/Curator, Gay Couple Thiernax/Qadarin, nobody.
I donât know. At what point does the virtue signalling stop being hamfisted? Is it just because this is retroactive continuinity for a character we knew nothing about and not a new character?
The idea of Blizzard as a company genuinely supporting anything without it being a virtue signal to a target audience is just a strange line of thought to me.
Isnât it a bit unfair that trans people have this arbitrary chance that their representation is deemed hamfisted or a virtue signal, while cis people get everything else while nobody bats an eye?
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I agree with everything else youâd said⌠except this part.
If itâs truly ham-fisted and/or virtue-signaling, itâs not unfair to call it that. If the shoe fitsâŚ
I wouldnât say cis people get everything else and blame Blizz for not doing it sooner with characters (the âLegionâ expac came out in 2016, it wouldâve been widely accepted then to add a new trans character with a big role - eg; they couldâve made Thalyssra or Occuleth transâŚwith all their magic and their society, I think the Nightborne could use magic instead of surgery).
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Thereâs a few gay couples in Legion and a non-heterosexual (funnily, the first half of this words is banned) Night Elf Sentinel in Cata.
Itâs been widely accepted in Western society for years, Blizz has had plenty of opportunity to add trans characters with big roles.
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I think the difficulty in this sentiment lies in the fact that you can truly say this about anything. Companies are always virtue signalling.
Without getting into any X to doubts since I live in Europe where weâre a few years behind on trans emancipation, does it really matter if they add such things now as oppossed to back in Legion?
How is it any more or less of a virtue signal to add being trans as a backstory to a character now than it wouldâve been to add a trans character back then?
Kind of feels like the whole gamer bro complaint from a couple of years back when they started adding more female main characters to video games.
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I agree with what you said, except for the last 2 paragraphs.
Thereâs a difference between making a trans character and retconning a non-trans character to be trans.
Citation needed about these âgamer brosâ complaining about more female main characters in video games. Especially since;
âMetroidâ is a video game franchise with a female main character that began in 1986 and there werenât complaints about âfemale main characters in video games.â. Ten years later and the first Tomb Raider game came out⌠and was it received with complaints of âmore female main characters in video gamesâ or widespread acclaim that saw Lara Croft become a cultural icon? (hint, it wasnât the former). The were few criticisms when Parasite Eve came out in 1998, and none of them were about a âfemale main characterâ. Itâs been happening and embraced long before recent titles like âHorizon Zero Dawnâ and âLife is Strangeâ.
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Chromie is not a case of the second. Chromie has been revealed to be an assigned male dragon thatâs almost entirely been seen presenting a female identity. Chromie isnât a retcon, theyâre a clarification that removes any lingering doubt.
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Chromie was originally female with a âweird nameâ according to Metzen himself⌠then the staff flip-flopped for years until very recently officially making Chromie trans. Note how apart from the aspects, male and female dragons used the same models until later expansions.
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I donât know if it is, considering the nature of being trans. Sheâd have been a female since she was introduced regardless of if they informed us back then or right now, right?
I didnât know this was a contentious topic. Iâll drop it considering it feels off topic when discussing Chromieâs gender identity. 
Youâre taking two different developer decisions and context matters with this topic.
When Metzen said Chromie was a girl, he didnât say âtransgenderâ girl. Chromieâs direction on the past under former developers didnât follow current day beliefs where the statement:
âTransgender women are womenâ was not a recognized phrase en masse at the time Metzen said this. 12 or so years ago was a wildly different time.
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Imagine how sad all those girls that were named traditionally male names by their parents, theyâre lost character they could sympathize with
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Of course. Thatâs the whole reason why people are mad. Some simply donât want to see representation they hate. Itâs rather clear and sad.
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One (1) also dead gay couple, also tied to expansion content we will never see again, and one night elf sentinel only speculated to be a lesbian in a cata revamp questing zone they have never used again.
We didnât even have gay marriage until 11 years ago in the US and thereâs at least one âTrans Crisisâ on the Right Wing at least once a year since the early 2000s, most states still have laws where you can murder trans people and gay people (gay/trans panic defense), in what world are trans people âwidely acceptedâ today?
The US doesnât even have the option for âthird genderâ for intersex people, and most states still enforce bio-essentialism for gender change (medical certification of surgery).
What? When the main character was revealed to be a woman, there was a bunch of media drama even at that time, and debates as to her later sexualization by the community were revived in the late 2000s and early 2010s as a new generation were taught the character was a girl again.
All non-aspect dragons (except Tyragosa) use the same models even right now.
Thatâs assuming bad faith on Metzen or that the idea didnât occur to him. Fairly confident a man with his subaltern cultural interests (e.g. his aesthetic, his interest in the occult and neopaganism) surely led him to having LGBT friends even since that point.
The phrase was indeed popular within the LGBT community in the US, so wrong there too.
I remind everyone LGBT people and our culture didnât just come into existence in the past ten years, we didnât just start existing and begin being invented this past decade.
Most evident by the fact they were arguing against this point by saying the book wasnât canon, and are now doing âBUT ITS VIRTUE SIGNALINGâ now that Danuser said it is canon.
Insufferable.
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