Actually the only reason rets were that low was gear. Rets in naxx were more around 450 to 600 if geared.
First i would take apocs suggestion and make vengeance give a party wide 5% dmf buff.
Then i would swap kings and repentance giving two unique buffs to get yo provide the party. Then I’d take apocs other idea of ret getting 10% haste from picking up there 31 point talent (kings). They are now dou ng more dps and provide 2 unique buffs.
I’d also bring us back to pre 1.11 threat.
First off just break Fury Warriors down properly and let Rogues do their thing. Blizzard messed up with Fury Warriors and everyone knows it.
Second off, Paladins can DPS/Heal simultaneously, they just don’t do it well enough. Fix that problem before trying to compare their DPS to Fury Warriors.
More unique buffs is bad. Raids have plenty of buffs as is.
I keep trying to convey this point. These are Hybrid classes. They aren’t going to do competitive DPS either way.
So really what you’re saying is it’s fine these 3 classes are the only ones paying a massive hybrid tax? All I advocate for is a behind the scenes dps increase so there is a reason to bring them for the role the spec is designed for(pathetically badly). Not saying hybrids should do the same dps just not a huge massive gap.
People need to be honest and realize hybrid dps is there to fill a raid slot.
If you read my posts you would see I giving them damage increases.
I would also give them more buffs for that spec so the healing spec can’t cover it.
I would also nerf warriors.
All 3 were covered in that post. How can you not see that?
If I have to make it more obvious.
You’re examples are ret and warriors.
Ret I give a deep ret buff to the party to increase everyone dmg. This makes ret more desires.
I would swap repentance with kings. Once again this means ret has a unique blessing that a healer can’t cover.
Then I’d make kings also give the ret a passive 10% haste. This increased his damage.
Lastly I’d go back to pre 1.11 threat levels, which means fury warriors can’t go ham. They literally have to slow down.
This is three fold. First it reigns in warriors who got out of hand.
Secondly it makes the only utility rogues had (ignoring threat ) actually viable again.
And third it makes the first two raid tiers less trivialized.
it sounds to me like you’re still trying to fit the retail philosophy into Classic, though.
Vanilla was balanced around CLASSES, not around every CLASS being optimal, or even close to optimal, for everything in every aspect of the game.
Paladins could DPS, tank and heal. They could even do so in raids. They might not be a the preferred choice for main tanking raids or DPS in raids, though. If Johnny insists on DPS’ing with his paladin in raids, then he might have to find a guild that is not obsessed with cutting edge progression raiding. If Johnny wants to be part of a cutting edge progression raiding group, then he might have to forego DPS’ing in those progression raids.
Nah it sounds like he ignored the parts of my post where I clearly made rets more appealing (kings is ret specific, 5% party dnt buff from vengeance), the part where I made rets do more damage (10% haste) and ignored where I clearly nerfed warriors (both tanks and dps)
The best thing they can do is revert certain threat changes that happened late in Vanilla that were a big part of why Rogue, Mage, Warrior run away with the meters in the first place.
Other than that buffing hybrid DPS just runs the risk of turning the tables into a “Why should I even bring a Rogue?”, and Hunters might as well just forget about raiding entirely other than being there to Tranq Shot.
Blizzard already confirmed they’re not doing balance changes so it’s all academic at this point, but if you were going to buff hybrids your best bet is what other people have been mentioning: Give them a group buff that only they can bring, and that they need to be DPSing in order to bring.
Things like Vengeance giving a +5% to the rest of the party is a better way to increase Ret desirability in raids rather than attempting to mess with the DPS of half the classes in the game.
Well the theory that buffing hybrids in non healing roles would lead to noone playing other classes has been thoroughly disproved. It’s not even a debate it’s been proved in real life testing that people will happily continue playing pure classes even if hybrids can match their dps.
Blizzard already confirmed they’re not doing balance changes so it’s all academic at this point, but if you were going to buff hybrids your best bet is what other people have been mentioning: Give them a group buff that only they can bring, and that they need to be DPSing in order to bring.
Things like Vengeance giving a +5% to the rest of the party is a better way to increase Ret desirability in raids rather than attempting to mess with the DPS of half the classes in the game.
Those buffs would have to be fairly significant and also a major change. Don’t get me wrong if they buffed hybrids to the point where you actually wanted to bring a mixed group of hybrid/pure dps over just pure dps then it would be interesting.
I hope you are not using the post-vanilla game as your reference point. As unique utility was continuously stripped along with DPS buffs and Hybrids(like all classes) were broken up into individual specs.
So if you are suggesting that we take away 90% of hybrid utility along with their DPS buffs. Okay then.
Not really, hybrids had plenty of utility while doing competitive dps for a long long time and it didn’t prevent people from playing pure classes.
And the thing is, when a hybrid is using utility which in WoW really just means doing something outside of your role, they are by default less effective at whatever role they were supposed to be doing. There’s the hybrid tax, it’s organically built in without the game trying to force hybrids into healing.
nerf shield slam threat, and sword specialization talent for warrior and rogue to pré 1.9 it’s a legitimate discussion.
Buff hybrids it’s not a legitimate discussion because don’t are in vanilla timeline.
They should put disclaimers on the hybrid classes at character creation screen warning them that they will be forced into healing only at end game so that players won’t be deceived into wasting the time it takes to get to 60.
It hasn’t been disproven at all.
The time when hybrids were doing competitive DPS was WotLK, at which point a lot of utility had been taken away from the hybrids and given to the pures. There was also a lot more homogenization that happened.
There’s no proof that it wouldn’t happen unless you used WotLK class design, but this isn’t a WotLK server. This is a Vanilla server.
That’s fine, I know there are people who will stick by the dey turk ur jerbs argument until the sun burns out but just like the flat earth theory it’s been soundly disproved.
In wrath hybrids still had plenty of utility and could hold their own dps wise, yet for some reason plenty of people still played pure classes. Fear monger all you want hybrids doing competitive dps or tanking does not lead to people not playing other classes.
Rogue population dropped off during WotLK.
Actually, Rogues dropped to 8% which if you account for Death Knights being in the mix then that’s the equivalent of 8.8% if Death Knights weren’t being counted.
On Northdale right now Priests make up 8.9% of all characters. Paladin/Shamans can only be played by half the players but make up 6.3% and 5.7% respectively. Druids are the outlier here with only 6.6%
The data shows that Rogue populations in WotLK were comparable to what Priests have on a modern 1.12 server, and worse off than what Shamans and Paladins have(once you consider the faction restriction).
So if “plenty of people still played pure classes” in WotLK, then by your own argument: Plenty of people still play hybrids in 1.12.
So why is it acceptable that it happens to pures, but not to hybrids?
How about this?
Play what you want, when and where you want. Not every class will be exactly the same, they will have their own strength and weakness. But everything is viable. As long as you know the class and spec and have the determination and skill, to accomplish what’s needed.
You can’t really give paladin’s a 5% raid dps buff. That’s just perpetuates the problem. Also pretty OP considering horde doesnt get them. Not to mention talent reworks etc. Are much more changes than most want.
Honestly I dont care what the OP pure dps is. As long as the hybrids is within a decent percentage.
Classic is nostalgic and that’s the main draw. Fact is you only have 3 actual raid roles. Tank/dps/heal. Warriors are immune to the hybrid tax with a tank role but others are not?
So I stand by my statement buff hybrid dps to competent, not equal to pure, but still serve it’s purpose.
It’s assumed that if Ret Paladins got something, then ALL the hybrids would including Elemental and Enhancement. It would also be party wide like Feral Druid’s Leader of the Pack, not raid wide.
A change being “much more than most want” is irrelevant because this discussion is purely theoretical anyway. Blizzard already confirmed they are not doing any amount of class balance in Classic, so ANY change is more than what we’re actually going to get.
The problem with hybrids being within a percentage of the OP pure DPS is that the pure DPS themselves have a very considerable gap between them. You said that if Warriors do 1000 DPS then hybrids should do 900, but in this scenario Hunters are sitting at 750. How is that fair to Hunters who can only DPS? Are we going to buff every single spec using Fury as a benchmark? That’s going to cause a lot of balance issues in PvP.
Here again we have ziryus not mentioning all the changes that happened besides buffing hybrid damage that it took to keep people playing pures.
He also fails to mention that 2 pure classes dropped down to roughly 6.5% of the population despite said changes.
Ziryus likes to pretend the only change was buffing hybrid dps.
He also feels it was fine that said pures were so low in overall population because they were still brought to raids.
Did you miss the other changes?
Please tell me me how giving paladins 10% haste doesn’t buff their damage?
And if you paid attention the nerfing of threat generation puts a tax on warriors again.
How can you miss these points when I bring them up multiple times