Challenge Mode Dungeons Re-open on Tuesday -- Update July 28

For a few hours following the launch of Mists of Pandaria Classic, Challenge Mode Dungeons were accessible to max-level characters and due to a bug, players incorrectly received Achievements for accomplishments they did not complete. We quickly closed access to Challenge Mode dungeons as soon as the issue appeared, while we worked to diagnose the problem.

We have fixed the issue, and to resolve it and equal the playing field, we’re moving forward with a clean slate and removing all Challenge Mode Achievements that were attained during the period of time that Challenge Modes were open. Further, so that all players will have access to Challenge Modes again at the same time, we will unlock access to Challenge Modes on MoP Classic realms worldwide at 3:00 p.m. PDT on Tuesday, July 29.

Thank you very much for your feedback. We’re excited to see you dive back into Challenge Modes in MoP Classic.

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Will players with legitimate times and achievements who completed the challenge modes properly keep their achievements?

Or will we be punished from the actions of others abusing the system and have to re run all the dungeons we have already timed?

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“equal the playing field” = everyone who already completed their cms gets hit with a pie in the face

:rofl:

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What a joke. Many gold achievements were completed legitimately. It would be very easy to not wipe every achievement and allow for the legitimate gold times to remain. We stayed up all night on MOP launch attempting to get realm first 90, gear up our characters quickly and try for realm first all gold challenge modes, which were able to complete legitimately with the exception of Temple of the Jade Serpent due to the achievement bug, and now all of our progress will be wiped. Now we will have to compete with others who will have had more time to prepare, gear, and practice, on an “equal playing field” which defeats the spirit of the realm first achievement. What do you think serious PvE players were doing immediately after hitting 90???

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Okay… SURELY it would be child’s play for you all to just remove the illegitimate runs right?

It’s not like if would be hard for you guys to differentiate between the two, the times are saved after all - I’m looking at my golds right now, they’re all under the time limit.

Me and my team raced to be the first ones to 90 on our server specifically so we could rush into challenge modes and secure our Challenge Master Feats of Strength, and now you’re telling me that we grinded and practiced and went through all that effort only for you guys to take it away and reset the content in the middle of the work day?

I’m trying to remain composed here, but this is making me so unbelievably angry.

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What an absolute joke. Even after 20 years Blizzard can’t launch anything properly and now they’re at it again punishing everyone for their own coding errors.

At least I feel justified in never giving a crap about Challenge runs. Why bother attempting to be World First at anything when there’s a >50% chance it’s just gonna be retroactively taken away?

Buy your game time with gold farming and stop giving the mutli-dollar company all your money when they clearly don’t respect you.

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so… probably blizz doesn’t know this, but a lot of groups were preparing for this launch to race world first/realm first of challenge modes. A lot of people trained for days for this, spent a ton of load of gold to get all the advantages posible while rushing leveling ASAP, and suddenly, it all goes to trash… all the dedication, all the effort, all the grind, the entire time spent doin practices on CM with low ilvl, the leveling race grind, everything goes to the trash for them (also for me and my group). We all were equally on the playing field, and now you come with this bitter resolve due to your mistakes, we are all punished for this… i wonder what would happen if this occured on a raid during race to world first… this literally killed mop for me

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kind of a bit of revisionist history by saying they “closed the challenge modes immediately”, they closed them like 12 hours after people completed them and there’s no mention of the fact that temple of the jade serpent wasn’t completable because of a different bug which clowned everyone on realm first,

not that the realm first would matter anyway because its being reset to equal the playing field :man_facepalming:

my guess is that this effects so few people that ur willing to just torch those players and put out this white house press secretary response about how you jumped into action and prevented some unruly bronze medallers winning a realm first without mentioning that you dropped the ball on another launch

at least mogushan vaults didn’t randomly open a week ahead of time like the aq gates did, twice

i get that this video game thing is really hard to run genuinely but i think we have a right to be mad at this

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y’all are 13 years too late to be world first :rofl:

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practiced for ~18 hours for realm first for this, stayed up 18 hours on launch, did 8/9 of them legitimately in terrible gear, only couldn’t do jade serpent because of blizzard issue, now progress is wiped and it’s rescheduled for a time we can’t play? at least let us have the ones that were completed legitimately. really crazy way to start an expansion.

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You guys had all of Beta to fix this bug and somehow even broke Jade Temple since it was working on Beta. Now you try to fix things to be even, when it is anything but. you have all the tools needed to track down people who didn’t actually earn gold times but just are not willing to put in the effort.

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I just want to add - From someone who was competing to do Realm First CM’s on Faerlina and was likely ahead by an hour or more to the best of our knowledge.

We were never given a launch time for Challenge Modes so the implication was that they were there on launch, as they were. The only reason Realm Firsts didn’t happen is because the Heroic Temple of the Jade Serpent achievement was bugged. And as others mentioned, they didn’t close until the following day, with at least a few direct reports I’m aware of going in by around 1AM PDT about Temple of the Jade Serpent
Albeit, I’m aware the group of people who cared about that is likely <=100. Maybe closer to 50, if not even less than that.

But the bug that’s seemingly causing a forced wipe was any completion giving Gold tier rewards. So to have the entire slate wiped, is super unfortunate.
This reset scenario minimizes all of the time, effort, scheduling, etc that went into the original push for Realm First. Even ignoring the potentially months of prep itself, the execution time spent alone is a difference of 9-10+ hours down to less than 2.
And on things we didn’t practice for because it wasn’t the scenario presented to us.

Even if you don’t care about the prep and whatnot the people did - Scheduling alone means the Realm Firsts very well might go to people who didn’t even try to compete originally because they didn’t care. And the original groups now have work, or other obligations (or god help you if you’re EU).

Unfortunately I have no idea what makes a fair Realm First at this point. But now getting a random sub 1 week prep time, and no way to practice dumb risky pulls and finding 8 people with Warlocks (and helpers) to summon us, it just feels bad.
In a super ideal world, it would be manually reviewed and assigned in cases where there were clear winners which at least publicly I think we believe that was the case on most realms. But then edge cases have to be considered.
The secondary scorched earth is to just remove the Realm First Challenge Mode Gold. Which honestly I’m more keen to agree with.

It’s just such an extreme bummer to those of us who did try to prep and practice for what we were expected to believe was coming.

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add lfr while you’re at it
:cherries:

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It happened in Hall of Fame Liberation of Undermine. Ppl had to reclear the last 2 bosses because ppl were buying lockouts to take advantage of a bug where they didn’t have to clear all the bosses to get credit for Cutting Edge.

This is extremely unfair and just insulting to all the people who practiced on beta for completeing RF Challenge modes, especially considering the main bug (gold no matter the timer) was reported hundrends of times on beta.

How is it not possible to spend the time to remove the illegitimate times since challenge modes we’re effectively only available for a single day when most people we’re not even 90 yet…

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While I don’t understand the appeal of trying to get “world firsts” in content over a decade old, it does seem messed up to rug pull the people who apparently put in a lot of time to do it.

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I’m mixed. I feel a little bit bad for the sweaties that are getting reset, but at the same time they don’t care about the rest of us and as soon as they can make the times unbeatable to avoid everyone else from getting titles or feats of strength they are going to do it and laugh about it…so gg ig.

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It was not until I suffered the lazy, thoughtless, and egregious design of systems and solutions of modern Classic WoW that I truly appreciated the careful and brilliant work of the developers from so long ago. I am now, retrospectively, grateful to have been able to play their games. It is unfortunate, that even standing on the shoulders of giants, the current team’s faithless approach to implement the same experience fails at each hurdle. I would not be surprised if it did not occur to the team that they could simply wipe the achievements and automatically reassign them based on the Challenge Mode times that are stored for each character (in their Challenge Mode tab). I’m certain it was not discussed that wiping everything demands the players login yet again at another time designated by Blizzard (during the work day on a Tuesday). I have no doubt that they are unaware this shifts the realm first race from a competition to see who can complete them in 439 item level to a speedrunning competition in full gear. Even as I write this, it is with a numb resignation – the acceptance that likely nothing will be done at all to rectify this issue. That time, I suppose, is better spent on nerfing disc priests or policing GDKPs so that a father of four can sleep at night.

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There is so much to say about this decision. For those who didn’t compete, are a bit confused about the details Blizzard has actually provided, or are choosing to internalize this as though the groups who chose to participate in the realm first race somehow impacts their play - this post is meant to be a respectful digest of the entire situation end to end.

My end hope is that there is indeed some continued oversight from the Developers that will read this and understand completely the impact of their decision, and sincerely understand the alternatives.

The Goal: Challenge Mode Realm Firsts
The Realm First Feat of Strength is to complete all 9 challenge modes on Gold by clearing the dungeons within the limited amount of time. That’s it. For this, similar to leveling, you get a Realm First FoS/Announcement.

This was a challenge of marathoning - this has nothing to do with players locking in the realm-best times and denying other players those best-time Feats of Strength by performing as any meta comp in full gear that is impossible for others to beat. This is a competition of playing for a long time, executing cleanly back-to-back, and doing it FIRST. That’s it. All of these times are sure to get beaten/replaced.

What it meant to execute and why it doesn’t impact realm-best considerations
For some of the earlier remarks, I want to point out why sweaties being sweaties on this has nothing to do with realm-best times in the medium term. Nothing I’m doing has anything to do with your goals and is in no way targeted to deny you those goals.

Challenge modes scale your gear DOWN to 463 (not up!), theoretically meaning that (despite some minor optimizations), once you hit 463 iLvl and get your profs, the experience doesn’t get meaningfully easier.

However… the race to FIRST is NOT IN THE BEST GEAR. Not even close. In addition, some classes are really really good, but while your class might never be able to truly lock in a realm-best time, the ability to marathon to the realm first as your class was far more achievable given the nature of the competition.

As a point of comparison, I play a Rogue (not great for this!) and entered the CMs in 450 gear with 1 of 2 profession benefits (not 463!). In this setup, I was on track to succeed (see below).

Breaking down the requirements on launch

  • Leveling Fast: You needed to be 90 as quickly as possible.
  • Minimal Gearing: You needed to gear up fast, and with limited control. Responding to what’s available on the Auction House, responding to what dropped in your first-day heroic lockouts (yes, you can requeue RDF, but you couldn’t target dungeons over-and-over for your True BiS). YOU DON’T END UP WITH FULL BIS, YOU END UP RUNNING THE CHALLENGE MODES IN HILARIOUS LACK OF GEAR, ENCHANTS AND PROFS.
  • Coordinated Guild Assistance: Relating to the gearing, if you could shave off time not needing to grab all your own enchants/gems and so forth as it become available on the AH, the better. People in your guild could grab all that stuff while you were running gearing heroics and mail it to you. (:smiling_face:SHOUT OUT TO SUPPORTING PLAYERS :heart_eyes:)
  • Execute: Execute the Gold timer in the Dungeons!

These requirements implied a substantial prep effort in Beta. Yes - prep that we as players chose to perform in the assumption that this race would function correctly on live, figuring out the best ways to level (everyone in our group got realm first for their respective class), and practicing the CMs for large chunks of time with mock-bad gear until we were confident we could execute cleanly.

And it absolutely mattered. We were neck-and-neck with another group for the better of a day FOR HOURS ON END. Through the leveling and monitoring each other to see which CMs were getting completed. It was tense, exciting, and FUN.

The Situation: Interweaving Bugs and Poor Resolution Choice
Again - I strive to keep this post respectful, but I think this section is really important to understand the interweave of what occurred, and why this Blue Post is insulting in how it frames the situation.

Bug 1 and the Outcome - THE IMPORTANT BUG
Heroic Temple of the Jade Serpent did not give you credit for the achievement upon its completion. In order to enter Challenge Modes, you needed to complete the dungeons on heroic to unlock the ability to toggle.

In short, this meant groups could go (and did go) legitimate 8/9 Gold Times across all the other dungeons, but were stuck from completing the Realm First due to this bug, because you simply could not go inside. Blizzard has made no effort highlight this as interweaving their roll-back decision (or how they even framed the situation).

Bug 2 - Gold Achievement for Completion
The bug they do highlight here is that people were getting ‘incorrect credit’. If you completed the dungeon at all (not on time), you were getting all three achievements every time. Bronze, Silver, Gold. Every time. Perfectly repeatable bug.

This was present on beta and reported on numerous occasions

Blizzard seems to be focusing on this bug as the problem that needed to be fix - but it’s not. Your character profile has your times embedded, so a data-scrape here would mean all achievement status could be correctly populated with some effort RATHER THAN WIPING YOUR SLATE ENTIRELY CLEAN. If they were pursuing an effort to analyze the characters impacted, this bug wouldn’t actually matter.

Item 3 - Locking the CMs
This was a very good decision. It effectively ‘froze’ the race at the 8/9 stage without allowing groups to start doing the other dungeons while the Jade Temple bug was up, and gave Blizzard any amount of time desired to come to a decision. It was still awkward, our group has considered themselves ‘On Call’ until some decision was made to get online and get inside the Jade Temple ASAP, but we assumed the scope of who we would be rushing against at that point was the one-other group who put in all the same prep and marathon we did to get to that point, not the entire server. I don’t begrudge bugs, I just want considerate resolution.

The Solution(s) and why this is the Worst One

Solution One: Clear the Slate/Achievements and Make Every Group Start Over
Let me be clear. This is the worst possible outcome for those who anticipated the game working the way it was intended. Period.

Blizzard has framed this as “equaling the playing field”, but it’s the direct opposite. It’s resetting it, and on fundamentally different terms. There is NO ROLLOVER from those who were at 8/9 and at the finish line, it moved it from an on-launch marathon to what others have said: A speedrun to complete the 9 dungeons again, which you can now do in COMPLETE GEAR and can do so as the BEST COMPS on Tuesday at 3 PDT. All time from now-until-Tuesday is effective prep time, for a race that should already be over. The marathon aspect is completely gone, and it changes the rules of engagement.

Let me be explicit: As the rogue who poured in Lots of effort, the most rational thing for me to do for the rest of my group is step out and let them bring in a class more effective in the speed run.

“But you’re practiced and ready!”
You can practice the CMs on PTR right now, meaning a better class in my group can be practicing up-to-speed until Tuesday (and will).

Again, the rules of engagement are just fundamentally different. The pool of players now competing in ‘the speed run’ is different from the players who have already completed ‘the marathon’.

Solution Two: Reopen the CMs and Data-Scrape the proper achievement level
This one is Totally Fine. Basically, instead of resetting every achievement, all Blizzard needs to do is recognize that completion timers still exist. Even if the achievement ‘Get Gold!’ was always triggering, clear that, then re-trigger it based on your actual completion time.

That’s it.

Why does it matter? It means that groups sitting and awaiting on legitimate 8/9 Gold Times are only racing against each other to finish the Jade Temple when it goes live. It DOES NOT magically change the playing field to be every possible player who can walk in full BiS with Best Comp across all 9 dungeons on Tuesday (but had yet to enter a CM). And to be clear, THIS WILL BE DONE ON MOST SERVERS ON TUESDAY IN ABOUT ~2-3 HOURS at most.

In short? It’s a viable, technically feasible solution that respects the players who got to the 8/9 Gold point.

There’s plenty of complaints that could be had on this solution - until this was communicated, anyone awaiting news has effectively been ‘on call’ in case the CMs were magically re-opened without comms to hop on immediately to complete. But this is still far far far far better at respecting the original state.

Solution Three: Out of the Box Thinking
I’m going to write this one simply to convey - if Blizzard was in tune with the situation and the interplay of the bugs and the race, there are creative interpretations.

I don’t expect this one to happen, but write it as a clear example.

You have teams who put in the marathon, got to 8/9 Gold legitimate times, and effectively were halted at the finish line. You could assume at that point that any team who completed 8/9 could get over the line at 9/9.

They could respect that. They could trigger the Realm First for every character at 8/9 and call the race. It’s actually the ONLY way to assure that the race now doesn’t return to ‘Who can log on Tuesday and do Jade Temple immediately at 3 PDT’, even compared to solution 2.

Again - I don’t expect that to happen, but I want to convey that Blizzard can make player-guided decisions around the way the game was intended to behave at launch.

Lastly…
Community Perspective
I want to wrap this with a few statements. Player’s reactions to this event and thread will be everywhere. Players will look at a ‘sweaty’ and presume I’m anti-fun or I’m doing things in order to explicitly impede them from achieving the or that I’m just not the prime demographic that represents the community.

Every demographic is valid. In fact - I consider myself to be the demographic.

  • I’m a loyal Blizzard/WoW gamer. I’ve been subscribed mostly since vanilla launch, since the dawn of time. WoW is a notable portion of my friend group and while playstyle has altered, it’s been part of my life.
  • I’m a dad. 38 y/o with toddler. I’m the gamer dad!! Seriously!
  • I’m casual: Yes - you read that. I’m casual as all getup.

I just use my time differently. I get excited by a challenge so I commit to the framework of the challenge. I raid-log. I don’t play alts. I don’t PvP. Some people like to get up all their alts and min-max their profession efficiency and love having one of every class. The AMOUNT of time I play in game compared to many is relatively small, but bursty.

I don’t begrudge people or how they want to play.

I just also want to play the way I want to play, and achieve it, and wish as a long-time WoW fan that Blizzard could figure out a way to keep the effort I put to the goal to be relevant to the outcome.

I was in the Realm First line-up due to my own planning - managing work and family time side-by-side with meaningful prep for a marathon I took PTO. Managed my affairs like an adult. I was at the finish line.

Now the race is cancelled, rebranded, and it would be irresponsible and harmful to my group to scrape back into it. That’s it.

I appreciate you all and thank you the time to read and thoroughly understand the situation.

– Your pal Mystia

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I wish 1 day we didnt have people literally get articles wrote for them and wrote them themselves.

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