You said that Survival can’t replace Fury, yet you said this as an afterthought because you seem to cling to the idea that BM damage superiority is why fury doesn’t get melee dps spots. You also said SV doesn’t compete with fury for melee spots. Am I misunderstanding?
It can’t no. You’ll bring a Fury Warrior for the buffs. Melee spots are already limited. Survival will get scraps if all other required melee are there and a spot is still open (though a 2nd darkness is always good).
Yes, because ultimately, any guild is going to look at the numbers, look back at the Survival Hunter and say “Here’s a bow dude”. Survival’s main competition is Beast Mastery just being that insanely good.
But why do they even need to be “stopped?” Why can’t they just play in the manner that they clearly enjoy? It feels like every time we have a fun system that the vast majority clearly enjoys, they have to take it away. They did it with talent trees. They did it with flight. They did it with Dalaran and MoP portals. They did it with professions. They did it with gearing through heroic dungeons. They did it with rep grinding through tabards. They did it with reforging. They did it with glyphs (which, by the way, were very much like the covenant system but simpler and better). Where does it end?
It’s like they’re deliberately out to make everyone hate the game. Just because everyone likes to play a certain way doesn’t mean you should force them to play another way.
What other business does that? I’ve never seen a movie theater discontinue popcorn because too many customers are buying it and they want to keep things interesting. If Blizzard ran a movie theater, however, they would do just that.
1 Like
Ok I am tired of explaining multiple times but I ll do it one more so i can bookmark it and copy paste it for future yous.
-Fact, WoW as an RPG will always have non skill elements affecting your performance like Ion said, people who truly care about skill and competition dont belong in an RPG aka being competitive in a non competitive game, so anyone obsessing over the “top 100” doesnt say much about their “ability” because RPGs are nowhere near as competitive as overwatch, counter strike, mobas, starcraft. (In a sense RPGS is where average people who cant compete on those games go to feel “skilled”)
-The tryhard attitude has a trickle down effect to bad players who dont understand the game and instead try to copy “what is best” end up making the community and worse and more toxic by refusing to invite or kicking class classes that are not seeing as “meta” even though they can easily do the content they were doing. Example being kicking a TD tank and demanding a vers stack tank for a 15 while vers stack tanks are only needed for 25+, it shows their ignorance and that ignorance is hurting the community.
-Fact, RPGs are for people who enjoy character building, if you have no interest in character building or systems or mechanics and your only interest is to get in, get your gear and “win” you dont belong to the RPG genre. Ion said it best, THIS ISNT AN FPS WHERE YOU JUMP IN, GET YOUR LOADOUT AND FIGHT.
-Bad players by copying the meta remain bad players because they dont learn or understand their class in depth and often perform worse compared to a non meta player who knows their class well, that is why in dungeons you meet BM hunters or DHs who should be obliterating you in AoE yet a shadow priest beats them, therefore we need to push for people to stick to classes they like instead of “what is good” so they focus on learning their class and improving their actual skills instead of copying meta.
-BALANCE, that is a major point for Blizzard. Raids, m+ and all content is balanced around healthy combs without everyone being ultra optimal, unlike what tryhards want to tell themselves Blizzard doesnt balance around optimal combs and players otherwise 95% of the playerbase wouldnt be able to beat the content. Therefore we balance around healthy combs that are below ultra optimal classes and combs. Let’s say we have an AoE boss, that boss should be beatable on mythic by a balanced group of 20 skilled players without needing everyone to be uber aoe optimal, now the tryhard group instead of doing the fight will instead stack 14 AoE specs with huge aoe focused builds and legendaries and will roflstomp through the encounter therefore reducing the difficulty of the encounter to baby mode. While the other guild who did the encounter with a balanced comb dealt with the difficulty the devs intended.
-Delusions. People who play meta often arent that good but because they get carried by meta, as well as the fact that they are invited to groups they dont deserve (I ve seen leaders invite DHs because they are seen as meta in a m+ only for us to carry them, the leader didnt care to search for signs of skill, they just though demon hunters are good therefore invite) therefore getting more chances to actually also have good gear. This creates the delusion of skill while in reality if you put that person to play a sub optimal class their total cluelessness and lack of skill would be revealed.
The same can happen with guilds, tryhard guilds that stack FotM or the broken OP AoE spec for the AoE raid boss fight are nowhere near as skilled as a group that beats the same boss with a balanced comb, so bad players can become very toxic because they have deluded themselves they are great players so any wipe can trigger them into a toxic outburst which is another thing that makes the community worse.
2 Likes
You’re confusing Ion’s opinion with fact. Clearly he and I disagree, as I explained in detail. I think the Blizzard design team has been way off base since WotLK.
The tryhard attitude doesn’t trickle down. It’s just there. Honestly, you don’t want to play with tryhards, and they don’t want to play with you. I have no problem with tryhards existing. I do have a problem with Blizzard tailoring all content specifically to tryhards (which they’ve done in BFA with their timed dungeons, the wonky progression system where you just run the same content over and over for continuous upgrades to 445, and the frustrating profession quests that require years for non-raiders to complete while raiders finish in weeks). On the other hand, I don’t think it’s right to tailor all content specifically against them, either. Live and let live.
If this was the intended focus of the game, Blizzard would never have bothered to create RP servers. Every server would implicitly have been RP. From the beginning, Blizzard has taken the position that you bring your own RP to the game if you want to. They never built it in before. Why should they start now?
So what? Funny how you just complained about tryhard mentality and now you’re complaining that the meta is an impediment to adopting a tryhard mentality. These players would be bad with or without a meta. I’m pretty sure that, bad as they are, they’re better when playing the meta.
I agree with what you said regarding difficulty. I think Blizzard has gone way overboard in designing content that pretty much requires a meta to progress through. What does that have to do with enabling on the fly choices, though?
Who cares? This is a game, not a meritocracy. The purpose of a game is to feel good. Complaining that a meta makes people feel too good while playing a game is kind of silly. Also, you’re really contradicting yourself when you complain about toxic players excluding others and later complain about “undeserving” players getting “carried.”
i think we need more rpg elements in wow than just pve and pvp
you really have no perception of what being casual really is…
1 Like
Agreed. In my opinion, Mythic+ is inherently not casual by virtue of being timed. Everyone has their own definition of casual, and some here have equated it to time played, but I personally believe it has more to do with quality than quantity. The casual player prefers an easy-going experience with the liberty to AFK as needed to handle family emergencies, bio breaks, and even simple snack runs. They don’t/can’t block out several hours of game time on a regular basis. That’s why removing flight, reducing the number of safe areas, and gating high end gear and professions behind Heroic raids and Mythic+ dungeons is so anti-casual to me.
1 Like
i mean i dont do pve stuff any more cuz to much stress i mean figuring out raids and learning dungeons to much to handel and to much work to do that makes any body sweat
I wouldn’t necessarily define it to that degree. For me a casual is someone who would prefer to do things at a slower, and less skill intensive pace than a hardcore player. If we kept along your definition PvP is anti-casual because you will end up playing with players that want to play at the higher skill level in arena’s and bgs.
i mean you do have a point i like pvp more than pve i mean pve you half to learn the pve stuff just to be good at the game but pvp more about skills and understanding the player and helping your team out
Then Blizzard did the right thing in delaying the expansion release and should delay it until they have a much more stable expansion to put out.
Gone are the days people will accept really crummy buggy game play.
So they’ve done the right thing, even if they have to back date to 2021 they should to give us a decent game.
/#My Opinion
I think that still being able to complete the run and get loot over time keeps M+ in the casual sphere also.
So anyone who can manage a weekly raid time isn’t casual? Idk about that one.
in my opion shadow should relases in November or December or maybe January
See, this term, in and of itself?
It’s a lie.
The people at the upper end are all about making things work in unique ways or for different situations.
That, in and of itself, is not making yourself a “slave” to anything. It’s a different mentality. It’s okay for you to not understand it, but it’s not reasonable for you to force your viewpoint upon people who see it differently. Particularly when it does not impact you.
Some people enjoy maximizing personal performance and reward/gain from that. No different than some people being satisfied with a given salary, while others push and poke and advance as much as they can, as quickly as they can. Is someone who wants to work harder/smarter wrong for wanting to do so?
Nobody’s proposed that Covenants as an entire system need to die. The Soulbinds themselves, taken alone, are more than enough of a power difference between Covenants. There’s enough there that at the absolute tip-top end, if Covenant abilities themselves were separated, you’d still have people picking based on Soulbinds, but the irritation of that decision would be significantly lower for all parties involved.
Hypercasuals, casuals, midcore, hardcore, 1%- nobody would lose out on that. Some people think that this covenant system will help them get into content, when the reality is your own performance and capabilities will still 100% be the determining factor; Covenant abilities will just be an added layer of irritation.
The toxicity is actually two sided, and it’s not the fact that you can min-max that has casuals peeved at tryhards. It is the gatekeeper mentality that a sizable portion of them display. It is also worth noting it is not actually the 1% who casuals dislike, but the significantly larger population of tryhards who emulate them in the worst possible ways.
Your actually highlighting the double side to the toxicity quite well yourself… and your also completely wrong here too. Most casuals genuinely don’t care one bit about how covenants work or don’t work. It is only the tryhards and the 1% who are complaining about covenants.
Additionally, you may want to familiarize yourself with the difference between an RPG element and a purely RP element. RPG elements have lasting impacts on how you play the game. Ranging from stat points that impact your characters power, to branching story paths. Pure RP elements on the other hand have zero impact on the game and exist only to add flavor to the game and make aspects of the world feel more genuine.
What the 1% and tryhards want from covenants is to make the purely RP elements. Those of us who are opposed, which are various individuals from both camps, want them to remain as RPG elements. Covenants as they are, currently are RPG elements. WoW has had a distinct lack of real RPG elements ever since MoP came out, it has just been pure RP element after RP element for years… it’s been starting to feel like the game has changed genre from MMORPG to MMOAG… and I’m pretty sure none of us are here to play just another Adventure Game…
1 Like
Covenants would still have that RPG elements with soulbinds alone. Each soulbind will change how your character will interact with the world as a whole. Thus, if they were to cut it down to just soulbinds as the power aspect, everyone is satisfied. You maintain your rpg element without bringing down those that don’t want to be hindered by the choice.
There are a lot of people who want all soulbinds to be decoupled from covenants and to be able to swap them at will with no restrictions. Doing so once again removes the RPG element in the same way that Legion made talents no longer an RPG element… with the lasting impact aspect removed, it’s just slowly turning WoW into an Adventure Game… part of being an RPG is that you make choices that are either impossible to change, very hard to change, or costly to change. When you can change your choices at Will, it’s no longer an RPG element.
What’s stopping you from queueing for BGs as a casual by my definition? How many current BGs run for hours at a time? I haven’t done BGs in a while, but as I recall, you could knock one out in like 15-20 minutes.
I’m definitely tired of the “you’re casual, you don’t need to get more powerful to do your world quests, why do you care about gear upgrades” argument.
Getting more powerful has been part of the RPG genre since the 70s, when people played it with dice and paper instead of computers. And even in the early game of something like Dragon Quest, power can be the difference between being able to venture between two locations, or having to go back to your starter town to rest up after a few encounters.
Besides, those world quest monsters don’t die in one hit in your starter gear. Just because it isn’t M+ doesn’t mean time isn’t money, friend. And being casual doesn’t mean you don’t get jealous when you see a geared out player soloing a world boss.
Honestly, it feels like some people are arguing you don’t need to buy upgrades in Cookie Clicker because you can enjoy clicking the cookie without them, when the idea is EVERYONE wants to improve their CPS, regardless of how seriously they take the game.