Everybody is focusing on mythic 2s here. I don’t think mythic 2 is a problem for hardly anyone of virtually any level who runs mythic plus. It’s the mythic 2 affix that is causing issues for many casuals , semi casuals , intermediate players etc. when it impacts them at the mid level runs (4s 5s 6s).
The point is that in Legion you had a much smoother and barely noticeable level of increased difficulty from 0 through 4 , slightly tougher through 7 then you had to put your big boy boots on at ten. In BFA by level 7 you are handling 3 affixes as well as much tougher trash. This is a much more condensed learning curve and seems only to discourage those of many skill levels of play , not just the lowest level players. I haven’t run many dungeons this expac and only resubbed in November but it seems also that the timers are tougher also (feel free to correct me on that). I also have to agree with many here that the loot rewards from Warfronts and Emissaries dropping is just grossly inflated for dribble on your keyboard content - aren’t Warfronts just awful? If that loot pinada were nerfed possibly mythic plus loot would look more attractive , I agree that it shouldn’t be buffed.
I am fine with the dungeons being tougher in BFA (trash is , bosses not so much) but I do believe that taking out the +2 affix and maybe reinstalling it as a fourth much higher affix at say 15 or 16 would really help democratize mythic plus participation.
This is not true at all. Mythic 2 is 8%, 3 is 16% with no affix at all compared to legions 20% and 31%. The keys are already scaled down to compensate for the affix. This meme is all in your heads.
Furthermore, 4 is currently 17% damage and healing and it was 33%. Almost twice the base difficulty. 5 was 44% and it’s now 26%. Fort and tyrannical bring them closer to what they were in legion.
Even if the bosses on tyrannical are 5% more difficult than in legion, the rest of the dungeon is less than half at the +2 and slightly over half by +3. This is the true effect of the affix. That the dungeons change each week. It’s either easy trash or easy bosses.
Fortified trash not doing a lot in Legion? I still get nightmares about the cats in DHT. And the trash in Court or in Arcway where straight up brutal on Fortified.
That’s really an argument of whether the base difficulty (based primarily on mechanics) is too high. Maybe there are too many mechanics per mob, idk, but that has nothing to do with mythic plus or the modifiers.
Seems the philosophy of dungeon design shifted to deadly and mechanical trash. Not to say there weren’t trash mechanics in legion, but I wouldn’t be saying anything new if I said there were fewer.
I think you’re oversimplifying his argument. He’s not saying that casual players can’t push keys, he’s saying that casual players cannot get into the keys to begin with.
And I agree with him, I’ll be honest. I’m not an amazing player by any stretch - not even gone into heroic Dazar’alor yet, but I can do fine, do a +9 and sometimes a +10 with my friends, and that’s fine. That’s about the upper limit of my ability. I don’t want to move beyond this, but it gives me something to do with my friends outside of raid night.
But there are a lot of casual players who don’t have access to this, at all. It’s for a lot of reasons that he laid out - tanks being nerfed, overall more complex dungeons with more mechanics, harder trash, but I think the biggest offender is Fortified and Tyrannical at +2. A lot of people are looking at his post from the viewpoint of a hardcore raider, where “1.3x0 is still 0,” but it’s only 0 to people at the higher echelon of gameplay. If you’re the sort of player who considers m0 to be about your pace for content challenge, then it’s not 0. The lower tiers of m+ should be where super casual players can hang out and push themselves in relation to their own skill level, but they aren’t, because the difficulty curve is too out of whack. An unathletic person wouldn’t have a problem walking up an incline, but they’re not going to scale a wall, and that’s exactly what m+2 becomes to guilds like this - a wall.
Honestly, they should be able to bum around in the 2-4 playground. There’s no reason for them to be as brutal as they are right out the gate. That’s what 10+ is for.
Then +2 is a challenge. The endgame for that player is +2. The very next step in the ladder. If the gear wasn’t completely invalidated by freebies, completing that +2 would be a rewarding experience. +2 is easier now than it was in legion. Base difficulty reduced, a multiplier added to make it relatively the same.
Why do you keep repeating this obviously untrue claim?
The only difference between M0 and M2 in legion was 8% extra health and damage.
Fortified at level 2 in BFA adds 30% health and damage (in addition to the modifier) to a level 2 dungeon. Which is multiplicative.
So trash mobs in BFA M+2 do 40% more damage and have 40% more health than M0 mobs. That’s a significant difference both in difficulty and DPS requirements from M0 to M+2.
Because you’re incorrect. I may have been mistaken about 2 specifically, but not about anything else. You can find the listings posted over a year ago of the modifiers. Was going to post a SS, but you know, forums.
2 was 10%. Still not 8. There was a nerf and now there are affixes on 2.
Ultimately the problem seems to be that OP doesn’t like to do keys that are actually at the endpoint of their capacity because the loot sucks compared to trivial overworld chores.
Not to say there aren’t legitimiate problems with endgame content being thin or having no learning curve between facerolls and stuff you actually have to be awake for – there certainly are – but this specifically sounds at least in large part like more of a problem with the game crapping overpowered gear at you for smashing your head into mobs incapable of harming you than with the low keys existing. I can tell you the problem isn’t limited to people who peter out at a +2.
That said, I really don’t like the implication that a +10 is too difficult for casuals. Casual isn’t a license to not bother to learn and improve – if anything it’s a reason to do so, because presumably you have less time to do things and don’t want to spend it wiping because you stood in the big obvious swirly fire. Older expansions had casual content far more difficult than this, and they stepped up.
It’s been hard to tell if we’re talking about casuals or newbs/scrubs. Casuals aren’t inherently bad players. They lack the time to do the most difficult content in most cases, but not get walled so early.
Firstly stop using casual when you mean not very good player. I pugged an 1150 io score last season and I work 50hrs per week. Plus I’m more than 50 years old with lots of other things to do
I’m pugging another char now and you want to know something? Running a 12 on my main is easier than running a 6 on my alt. You know why? Because you guys aren’t there.
Titan forging has ruined this game because it allows people who don’t have the skill level to get entry into things above their capability.
It’s not elitist to recognise different levels of performance. There are lots of things in life I’m not good at. But I don’t go around asking for them to be dumbed down.
I don’t even know how people don’t have pride. I’d be embarrassed to ask for a bar to be lowered because I couldn’t meet it.
There’s a reason pet battles and mount collecting etc. are in the game.
Not everyone wants to memorize the raid dance required to do Mythic plus. Even if you do you better hope the other 4 players memorized it to. That is too unreasonable an effort to expect from average players.
If I want dancing with the stars I’ll watch it on tv. I don’t need it in the game unless I decide to go raiding.
Then don’t run the content specifically designed to be the infinitely-scaling challenge. You already have two entire difficulties completely trivialized to your tastes, M0 is extremely easy to outgear to the point that it barely enforces mechanics, and even M+ is pretty simple until the third affix.
instead the game outside of M+ and norm+ raiding needs to be harder
for example interrupting and/or dodging (also if interrupts are not available) deadly abilities should be stressed from the earliest levels of questing right up to and including fresh 120 world quest content
you create a modern wow game culture that guarantees success and rewards incompetence with high level gear and you are surprised at the results ? come on
M+2 that rewards 375-380 is too hard for people at 380+ ilvl ? fine, remove all 370+ ilvl rewards (including warforge/titanforge) from world quest + world boss + LFR + assaults + random heroic content, so you know people actually do the INTENDED difficulty of content before receiving said level of reward ?
and as others said stop using the word ‘casuals’, those are not casuals, they are just bad terrible players that all too often refuse to learn, lets call them ‘baduals’ instead
I like it when gear rains like sunshine. I would like to have M+ tuned easier for my skill level so I can get a nice weekly cache. Make M+ easier, allow group finder to M +10. Make them have a scrub friendly difficulty progression up to +10. The hardcore will still have m +11 to knock themselves out on. Right now, the non hardcore are locked out.
12 million to 2 million subs. All because WoW catered to the hardcore all these years. Ion really did inherit a hardcore mess when he took over. I’m surprised he let this current m+ system slip through.
I dunno if this would make sense. I’m not hard core, but I enjo pushing myself and learning and getting better. If you implemented this system, the 10 to 11 jump would be huge and arbitrary. Right now it’s two distinct systems, mythic and mythic keystone.
People would quickly outgear content just like now and burn through 10 and hit a wall and it’d be the same set of conversations again.
At some point you do need to try some different things and learn to progress, or accept what is there and be content with it. If neither is appealing, put the game down for a few months until new content drops, or just social if that’s your thing.
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