And that’s fine. If it gave power it would be just like Azerite and Artifact power, meaning you’d feel forced to log on to make sure that you weren’t falling behind. Oh and yes, you were arguing that Azerite was better, and this reply literally confirmed it by pointing out that Renown is somehow ‘bad’ because it doesn’t offer player power, which Azerite did.
I see it everywhere.
So your issue is that loot is rng just like it’s been every single xpac???
Please define what exactly you DO mean when you say that people who play 1 hour a day deserve to “progress”. When does that progression stop? Currently on 1 hour a day you can get to around 180 via world quests, covenant sanctum gear and/or professions. When does that progress stop? What exactly should 1 hour a day net you?
You’re joking, right? Bfa was worse than Shadowlands in terms of casual friendliness.
No, that isn’t remotely true. Calling something worse, is not saying the rest isn’t bad either. This isn’t some world of only white and black. Things can suck more than others, and not mean that everything else better than it is good…
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You don’t have to play on Complexity Limit’s schedule. You can use your own goals and targets.
I consider myself casual as I take the game at my own enjoyable pace. Get a group of friends and grind out some mythic/mythic + and get some loots.
Ya but you’re proving the whole point of my argument which is Shadowlands/retail is catered more towards casuals. Classic is a content drought and honestly Naxx is the most fun raid while AQ40 is pretty bad. BWL and MC are just boring. While that’s largely subjective, it’s a common sentiment among classic players. Meaning only the most hardcore players will really get a chance to experience an actual fun raid like Naxx; the problem is you need to bre willing to commit several hours out of the week just to grind/farm gold in order to raid Naxx.
And once again proving my point that Classic is a huge time sink while Retail is more forgiving and is more considerate on not being as heavy of a time sink for content. The whole problem is whenever you mention casual, some idiots automatically think it refers to “bad players.” It’s just a matter of how much time that player can invest in the game.
MMOs are literally not about “playing 1 hour a day” though… 
To gain anything for your characters in ANY MMO E V E R you have to put time and effort into them.
If you want to enjoy a game where you log on for only 1 hour a day to get something done then maybe Minecraft, Fortnite, or something else is more suited towards your available playtime.
1 hour a day?
yikes thats terrible.
gonna need a new term, if im thinking casual im thinking 3 hours a day or something.
no wonder the game is full of damned timegates if they gotta care about the 1 hour a day crowd… yikes.
This is a bunch of reasons Classic caters to raiders less than retail does.
Making raiding more accessible and dedicating more pre-raid content to raiders’ sensibilities instead of casuals is catering to raiders.
It’s not about who the better or more available players are to do raid content, it’s what their interests are and how well the game fulfills those interests.
When raiders look at Classic, they’re unable to process leveling as anything but a waste of time and an impediment to their ability to access raid content. Casuals look at that stuff as the point of the game.
Shadowlands absolutely takes the perspective of the raider into consideration over casuals when it comes to what content is fulfilling to complete: Leveling is dumb baby stuff, put some shiny cutscenes and snazzy art direction in front of them and hand them random crap when they do things, that’s good enough for them. If they wanna be real players, they gotta go do the real content.
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Can I ask if you think casual = bad players? There are plenty of good casual players who can still do end game content; they just don’t have to time to be able to sink into the game.
If they wanna be “REAL” players and do “REAL” content, they can still spam mythics in the 1-2 hours a day they play to get equivalent ilvl gear as raid content gear, enter premade groups doing 1 boss at a time and experience all the content they need.
Stop beating around the bush. Retail is absolutely more catered towards casual players and that is why it’s surviving. Once the pandemic lockdowns cease completely, most of Classic high pop servers will diminish to medium. The server I was playing on already had that because people didn’t want to invest the whole week farming gold just to experience one fun raid for 2 hours.
People’s opinions on whether or not good/bad players deserve to experience end game content is no longer a thing if people want WoW to survive because there are more casual players who take it easy than there are competitive players pushing world firsts.
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Of course I don’t think that. It isn’t about qualification or free time, it’s about interest. I’m speaking about the people who just don’t want to do that stuff. They used to be 95% of the playerbase.
In other words, players with casual interests are hurried through the part of the game they enjoy and can either run an endless rat race of unfulfilling world content that doesn’t treat them like real people to tide them over or do a gauntlet of endgame 5man content with all the job interviews that entails in preparation for stuff they don’t even want to participate in.
This is my point: you literally can’t conceive of the game as being anything but a conveyor belt into raiding/mythics/high end pvp. That’s how retail is built. That’s why it caters to raiders. The part of the game casuals wanna play is insultingly railed and stripped down, and over in an afternoon or two.
It has nothing to do with how much time the player has to spend or how skilled they are. A player who wants to raid but doesn’t have a lot of time or needs to work on their rotation a bit is a raider.
I’ve been pretty direct, actually.
Retail has made raiding more accessible. That’s good for raiders. Raiders of all stripes, all skill levels, all capacities for commitment. When you say “casual” in making your points, you mean the casual raider.
You’re arguing the perspective of a raider in Classic, not that of a casual.
Deserve’s got nothing to do with it. WoW’s big problem is it assumes, like you do, that everyone is on here to push to endgame and do endgame stuff. That the purpose of the world is to ferry you to that endpoint. That the game should dedicate ever more of its playspace to inclusivity for the raid experience. That’s great for casual raiders, not great for casuals.
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If it was true progression, it would net you more than the previous day. That’s what’s missing from the casual experience: the ability to make steady progress day to day. You play two hours a week and then you’re gated until next week.
“But you get epics!” Who cares? You can’t gradually earn better pieces than you had the day prior. You do a handful of quests per week, and then you get the option to upgrade the same piece of gear that you’ve had since week one. How is that fun? Remember when casuals got pre-raid BiS lists that they could work on acquiring? Probably not because they haven’t gotten those for years now!
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You’re confusing casual play with limited play. Casuals want the game to be a time sink. They just don’t want to be forced into playing in solid blocks without being able to go AFK at a moment’s notice. They don’t want to be forced to log in every single day in order to achieve their goals before the next content drop renders them obsolete.
You’re so tunneled on the idea that all casuals want the raider progression model that you think that giving them two hours of play a week for upgrades (like raiders get) is going to make them happy. That’s completely wrong. What makes Classic casual friendly is the ability for casuals to gradually progress their character without raiding, timed content, or gating.
This guy gets it.
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This logical disconnect troubles me. It’s all over this community. It’s like the more the game tries to nudge casuals into the raid experience, the further up the hardcore base adjusts their line of distinction.
Used to be if you raided that implied all the commitment stuff that would define you as hardcore. Now, because those commitments are absent for getting into lower tiers of raiding, the no-lifers are still distinguishing themselves from who they label casuals, but it’s with tiers of iLvl x amount of time into an xpac, because that sharp difference in commitment is inflected there.
Yet it’s received wisdom that an xpac caters to casuals because casuals can raid.
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Don’t forget that they can time Mythics too. Because a raid-difficulty dungeon run at breakneck speed is oh so appealing to casuals, especially when one family emergency pretty much guarantees that someone’s key is being downgraded. But don’t forget that it takes no time!!!
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The thing I see now is small guilds that aren’t raiding are going to start dying, why put in a lot of effort to run high keys when I can just go raid now. Yeah I can get heroic piece from the vault if I do a high key.
Covent gear at least got me to ilvl for LFR lol.
Casual here. No guild no m+ and no real raiding in 5+yrs.( Skipped WOD and Legon) Only 4 M0 this expac for the weekly. There is progression just it takes more then an hr a day. I don’t remember what my ilvl but its good enough to solo big bands in torghast and the maw. An hr a day has never been enough time to play this game in the 5 expac iv played. Well maybe wrath with a 25 Daily’s limit.