I agree that the community is problematic in this gate-culture but you still haven’t dismantled my arguing point… because you missed the point entirely.
The argument is that Classic is less catered for casuals BECAUSE it requires more of a time sink to do anything. Casual =/= bad.
Go play classic for 1 hour a day and go play retail for 1 hour a day. You can get to level 50 playing 1 hour a day for a week. Can you do that with Classic? You can get to most dungeons you want by LFG queue. You can travel to most points of interest in portal rooms. These things don’t exist in classic.
I don’t think you are making an argument in bad faith but you seem to have almost a delusional perception of what classic/vanilla content was like.
The guy I’m replying to originally was making the argument that if you played classic for 1 hour a day, you wouldn’t get anywhere meaningful. I agree. My argument was that you CAN get somewhere meaningful playing 1 hour a day in Shadowlands. And thus proving my point that Shadowlands does cater more towards casuals. You’re just butting in randomly in without getting the full context.
You seem to be arguing a different point than I am which is fine so let’s break it down right,
You are saying that classic wow as it is today is demanding of your time. I agree it probably is.
I’m saying the game itself isn’t demanding this time at all and that if you could magically fill a realm with only people who didn’t care about min/maxing at all they would probably clear all the raids and could raid log and play less than 1 hrs a day on average. They probably wouldn’t play every day but would average raid logging to less than 1 hr a night over a week.
That’s all I was trying to say. Not having some bigger debate.
I am arguing a different point because I was replying to someone I was already in discussion with in this thread. If you wish to know that point, go back and read them because at this point I’m literally just rewriting what I wrote few days ago. You are the one bringing in a completely different side argument here… Classic WoW was just supposed to be an example of how it was a game catered more towards players who had time to invest into the game vs retail which gave you options to still catch up and progress as a casual player.
Classic WoW and Vanilla in itself by design requires more of a time sink than Retail. Look at how PvP ranking works in itself. Obviously if you want the highest top ranking in the ladder system you need to time sink A LOT into it… but if you just want to rank up your honor for cosmetics and stuff, you can do it at your own pace as long as you honor up. And honor spread for rank is even throughout all accounts I believe? And you have conquest system. I PvP’d for 1 week (only 3 days really) and I bought an epic 200 gear from Conquest and I upgraded a chestpiece to epic. You know what you need to do to get blue gear in Classic? You need to pvp for 2-3 weeks to unlock rank 6 gear. 2 pieces and that’s assuming your pool size is good enough that you don’t need MORE of a time sink. You know how much time sink is required to get High Warlord?
If you don’t want to have a bigger debate, please understand I wasn’t talking about Classic WoW to argue about what Classic was like; everyone knows Classic requires way more of a time sink for EVERYTHING. from pvp to farming to raiding to even moving around to leveling up.
You know what’s funny, I was watching this stream with this DH/2 hunters/1 monk and I think a druid healer? I forget who the healer was but basically they didn’t even need a tank with the 2 hunters and monks breaking like 20-30k dps in Sanguine Depths. THey could have just timed/kited the whole thing if they weren’t trying to do a clean run.
Absolutely no question. Why would elitists who want a smooth/fast run at higher competitive mythics want to take warriors or suboptimal spec/classes when you can just take DH/Hunter/Monk and break 30k dps without even breaking a sweat. I mean granted these guys were VERY good but hunters are just so convenient for that type of gameplay too. That was just an optimal kiting comp but the fact remains keeping to the meta will reward you more than checking for diversity.
I guess my point is other than SL being not casual friendly it also have a ton of class/conveant balance issue. If everything is more balance maybe the OP will have an easier time getting better content.But because some class/spec are tune so bad if you happen to play them good luck getting any form on invents. And then you have conveants which some of them are just bad for your class. I mean who in their mind will bring an assissian rouge to any meaningfuil content now? NO one. Same with DH or furry warrior frost mage.
I hardly have time to do much as well maybe 5 to 10 hours a week? Mostly I am leveling just alts. I do have a guild and they do invite me to do raids and m+ even when i explain I am that gear it doesn’t matter to them coz they just want me to have fun as well.
I agree with everything you said except this. It really doesn’t outside of the pvp grind. Vanilla design requires up front grinding to get max level but then it’s very light on max level time commitment. The community invented min/max content to do at 60 so if you want to count that then sure it does, but the game itself requires very little of your time to do raids.
The opposite is true for retail. In retail it takes no time at all to hit max level but if you want to complete what the game has to offer be prepared to spend a lot of actually required time doing it. The game simply has gear gates that don’t exist in vanilla, etc. The game won’t let you participate until you’ve passed the bar.
I mean do you remember Onyxia attunement? Chasing items for months that doesn’t even drop? Meanwhile people in Shadowlands are complaining about not enough loot and people are in their bis after 2-3 weeks. The difference is clear… if you’re seriously trying to argue that it doesn’t require as much time sink, I’m not sure what to think other than you THINK Shadowlands requires time sink. It doesn’t. There are people sitting in their bis gear for the current content after a month of playing. You can play classic wow for several months and your bis won’t even drop in those months you kept raiding. I seriously think you are disconnected from Classic/Vanilla as a whole because it was so long ago.
I was running out of stuff to do playing 1 hour a day and spent time farming up heavy callous hide for gold though granted this was before Nathria opened up but mythics was still there.
Months? What are you talking about. I was alliance so maybe the horde chain is worse but I did that in less than a week. I did play classic and did MC and Ony and then realized that it was to easy and the community was to sweaty for the difficulty.
You’re comparing a finished all patches released game to one that just came out. What were people doing when just MC was out? Nothing. They were hanging around doing nothing so much that blizzard pushed out DM ahead of schedule to keep people from getting bored and quitting.
I think you might be the one with the blinders on if you can’t see that there was literally nothing to do for huge huge swaths of time in classic outside of grind boring pvp ranks.
No Ony attunement was horrible for horde. THAT isn’t what took months. I mean if you’re chasing an item like Edge of Chaos or Lokamir, you wouldn’t even see it for several months. There are Classic guilds as we speak that hasn’t seen either of those items for literally several months and they raid BWL every week. There are people who raided MC for months and have only see Onslaught Girdle once. There are people who chased Drake Fang Talisman for months and haven’t seen it. Nevermind even if those items do drop, there are so many people who want them that your chance of getting it is slim.
This “chasing loot” culture is significantly notable and one of the main reasons why I have a hard time taking your arguments seriously. Again, people are sitting in their bis gear after Nathria’s been out what? 2-3 weeks? Or close to their bis? See how long it takes to deck out your character like that in Classic.
You said almost verbatim that only the front-part of the grind is worse on Classic but it’s the same. So explain how you could chase items for several months and not see upgrades on Classic whereas you can sit on your bis within 2-3 weeks in Shadowlands after a fresh patch goes out. 2-3 weeks after AQ40 or Naxx comes out, not a single player will be sitting in all their bis that’s available from that raid even after 2 months. Loot was a lot more scarce back then and raids were significantly bigger. Some bosses drop 2-3 loot in a 40 man raid. Seriously… just stop making this argument. You’re so disconnected from what Classic is like.
Last night, after another night where neighbors can’t quite grasp that loud bass at 1am is bad, I ran a couple of dungeons on an alt.
Just wanted to make sure to frame this before I dive in…
So, my lock lands in MoTS. Pally tank. Disc priest. Ret Pally. Boomkin.
All of these were geared out. H/M raid geared.
By the first boss I was averaging 2 to 2.5k, peaks hitting near 3k. Respectable for my ilvl and class.
I was lowest DPS. By anywhere between 8k and 18k. The boomkin was convoking for over 20K in the maze and the final gauntlet.
Even if I get geared…there’s no gap closing that unless I go all the way.
Not even will I ever be close. A lot closer would be a rewarding place to hit.
Not going to hit that any time where it will be relevant or useful.
That goes to where the OP was going.
Yes. Onyxia wasn’t a place to gear like the other raids though. Really hardcore to do that just for the 1 drop for your class (assuming your class had one that was directly useful).
Even when they brought it back later, it was a seriously nostalgia piece of content with a mount as incentive.
Yep. Zero to do at max level other than pvp, play the AH, and filling spots in other MC raids if you were bored enough (because your guild/group of friends had most likely gone to alts or left until something else came along).
That loses the point of the game having more than the meta in it.
By virtue of ilvl alone, you make all but the mythic raid and high keys a complete and utter faceroll…to the point of meming how faceroll.
You know…that other stuff casual players live in?..that you bring your absurd ilvl and IO requirements to because you can’t do more raid or have set your vault for the week?
I agree with this. Time to self evaluate and determine whether this genre is still for you or not. Personally I’m starting to realize the answer is ‘no’.
You’re not alone don’t worry. Life changes and priorities change too. This expansion has made me realize WoW isn’t the game for me and that’s okay. There are lots of more casual easy going MMOs out there that are pretty fantastic.
I’m starting to feel more and more like this (just not welcome in the game after a certain point)… I just did this weeks WQ Boss and got nothing, for the 3rd time in a row. The first one that opened in Maldraxxus dropped a Memory for a spec I do not want to pay (but apparently the game assumes all rogues are Outlaw, and rewards with only that spec drops, seeing this in all WQ rewards and the like)…
WQ Bosses are probably the only way I’ll get 200+ items, and how I got higher lvl stuff in BFA. I don’t have the time to Raid, so after this week I’ll probably just start falling further and further behind in ilvl with no reasonable way to keep up, when I can mainly play about 2 hrs a day. I’m not saying I want the same rewards that someone who puts in 8 hours on a raid gets, for playing only 2 hrs… but SOME way to be working towards those rewards would be great. I was hoping that the Vault would be that, but again, with only a couple hours available to me to game, going into rated PvP or Raids or Keystones just doesn’t seem feasible.
I think you are missing the point here too. Please go back and reread becuase you’re actually helping to prove my point. Yes retail allows you to catch up gear faster than Classic thus is catering more towards casuals. You’re quoting my “Not a single player will be sitting in all tehir bis that’s available from that raid even after 2 months” and then talking about mythics… you realize that comment was about Classic? Raids/mythics should be considered one and the same; there is no mythic option in Classic. In Retail, it gives you mythic option so that casual players who can’t sink in 4 hours to progression raids can just spam mythics and get ilvl gear to “catch up.” You don’t have that option in classic, therefore it requires more time sink therefore it is less catered towards casuals.
You quoted my ony attunement, then talked about the ony raid NOT the attunement… do you know what Ony attunement is? it’s a set of quest line you have to do in order to be able to enter Onyxia’s Lair. There is no attunement mechanics in retail that requires you to complete just to unlock one raid.
You’re doing nothing but helping me prove my point retail caters more towards casual players than classic and classic requires more of a time sink.
Every single individual can do 4 world bosses every week and you don’t even need to wait for it to spawn and camp it out. In classic, you do.
You guys arguing that Classic doesn’t require more time sink than retail outside of leveling sound like you haven’t touched the content in a decade.