So I’ve been pointing out how bad WW is all expansion. We where in the bottom of dps all last tier and it is happening again.
Over all Damage
Single Target Damage
WW monk needs a rework, badly, but I would settle for a buff even.
I’m fine with a buff and such, but it seems like % deviations from the mean/top would be more relevant than a graph like this showing specs in order because that will always exist.
Let’s say the buff the bottom 5, from that graph that would be feral, windwalker, marksman, beast mastery, and havoc.
After that buff the new bottom 5 are then enhancement, balance, survival, assassination, and retribution.
Is that ok? Do those 5 specs also need buffed since they are at the bottom? What if they are buffed past the first 5 and they go back to the bottom?
I don’t think monk will ever get out of its constant cycle of start high at the start of each tier and slowly degrade to the bottom until they rework us to stop relying on vers as a main secondary stat. Vers scales terrible and if there aren’t enough damage proc items each tier then we will quickly fall behind.
That’s the most annoying part, isn’t it? The problem could probably be addressed fairly easily out to quite a long time horizon by simply dialing up the mastery conversion ratio, reweighting our priorities away from vers. There’ll still be long term issues due to our relationship with haste, but at least they could push away the need for constant dialing in on the auras.
Had a evoker friend in discord yelling:" haha I don’t even know what buttons im pressing and look at this damage"
Meanwhile mashing my windwalker keys:" Yeah… Cool"
Haste could interact with cdr like it does with a lot of other specs. If they treated rjw like spriest void torrent where it lasts the same time but does more damage off of haste.
I always thought ww would be cool if it would have a street fighter/mortal kombat capstone where a series of button presses gives buffs. tp, bok, tp would do something as an example. You’d have a move list lol. Idk shower thoughts. https://www.mksecrets.net/index.php?section=mkt&lang=eng&contentID=4000
idk it’d be hard to pull off in wow but seeing how our mastery is, I think a handful of moves would be fun.
This is awesome you put this together.
Overall I’m surprised balance is this tight. Mostly a spread of +/- 5% around the mean.
It’s funny how Ret is considered amazing and WW is within 2-3% of them. Apparently there is a very small line between amazing and crap from the community.
oh theirs a pretty big desparity.
just look at mythic 12% desparity. though if ww/mm/bm were brought up a little, and unholy dk brought down some. that would shrink dramatically. as they’re quite the outliers. though most cases that’s within 2 standard deviations, and if a couple outliers are addressed most things will be pretty close.
It’s even worse if you look at mythic boss - with an 18% difference between the top and bottom. That’s the metric that matters the most, theirs always enough cleave to deal with adds. This one has a lot of things way up top because of PI, but also a few that are way down low.
It’s hard to take “overall” as a gauge. with how padding works in some fights. do you need enough AoE to kill adds? yes. but it’s quite common for padding to occur on those parts. so any class with decent innate AoE even in a ST build, will push their overall quite heavily on those.
that said, optimally I’d like to see the std gap at 2 or less across the board. . Preferably 1.5, which is very possible once the outliers are addressed. However PI makes balancing extremely hard, since specs near the top get PI which then makes the margin even larger. Augmentation evoker coming out soon will make that even more difficult.
There is a lot that goes into it though.
Damage profiles.
Melee vs ranged uptime
Fight length and how it aligns with cool downs.
Selection bias of the better players tend to always play the better specs which further expands the gap.
Isnt that how ninja in ffxiv works.
Idk I’ve never played it.
Not at the top percentiles though. You’re still getting best of the best playing each spec.
You think the best mages are all equally split playing fire, arcane, and frost?
Like the best 30 mages all are split playing 10 fire, 10 arcane, and 10 frost?
Let’s back up and establish your original claim to make sure everyone’s on the same page of the discussion…
Are you referring to classes with multiple dps specs like mage, rogue, lock, etc will migrate to the spec thats currently the highest tuned within their class?
Or are you saying a top 30 monk will fotm reroll to lock just because of tuning?
Your previous statements in other threads lead me to believe you are referring to the latter but you can clarify yourself. The first would be an accurate statement. The second would be inaccurate.
It’s both, although swapping specs is easier/more done than classes. I do think classes with only 1 dps spec (shadow, WW, Ret, havoc, detestation) are in a different place of people more likely to make it work than classes with 2-3 dps specs they can change to.
We see it every patch. SL season 3 and 4 a massive explosion in the amount of survival hunters being played. Virtually anyone who wanting to dps was class swapping to them or destro. Blood DKs go from almost non-existent to making up most keys.
DF season 1 launches with prot warriors dominating, their rep is off the chart. Now it’s near the bottom and prot paladins are highest, although Veng and guardian (remember when Bear was a unicorn to find in S1?) are catching up.
Shadow priests having massive numbers right now compared to SL.
I do think classes with only 1 dps spec (shadow, WW, Ret, havoc, detestation) are in a different place of people more likely to make it work than classes with 2-3 dps specs they can change to.
Look at Andy (top end mythic+ tank) who has every tank and just swaps around as soon as one is better. Players at the top can reroll and play any spec because they understand the game really well.
Not really. The ww monks in the top 10% of mythic raiders on warcraft logs are more than likely monk mains. (depending on your definition of main) Click through their history and you’ll see them playing the spec for a while. There may be seasons off or 0 recorded history on a few (possibly selling account) but overall, people at the top of each spec are more than likely long time mains.
There’s a difference from average joe parsing a 54 on his bm hunter swapping to mage next season to parse a 46 because he sees the weekly warcraft logs report on wowhead and always sees a mage spec on top.
you’re now speaking on tanks. Tanking community is a different ball game all together and none of this discussion would apply to dps specs in the top 10 percentile of mythic raiding fotm rerolling.
also m+ as whole is a different animal than mythic raiding in the top 10 percentile. At that point you are trying to stack the highest damaging comp with very specific utility.
A lot of different discussions you could branch off to.
selection bias i can agree on the 50% margins, and some 75%. but once we’re talking the 95% margins I don’t consider that a factor there. That’s when you have predominantly one tricks and some of the best players on a class playing it. Including those who never leave it outside obscene scenarios.
fight design does change it yes by only a little
edit after reading some of the later posts:
tanks very much are a different beast. most tank players will freely play 3-4 tanks. and just go with whichever is best at that time. Especially true on the top end for m+. the argument with dps doesn’t really even apply here very cleanly.
The part with multiple dps in a class swapping between is partially true and partially not. If you’ve visited the class discords of those, or played many of them (i play lock and rogue), you may be surprised. A large portion of them will only play 1-2 of that class’s specs and not all 3.
A lot of fotm rerollers tend to just be bad at what they reroll. for reasons like this the 95th percentile should generally be used as a metric. As it focuses the performance on those who truely no life that spec well.
If you believe that someone who parses say 95th percentile on fire mage, is still lower than arcane mages maximum purely because all the better players are on arcane? That’s extremely insulting to those individuals, flat out saying they can’t reach the peak of fire mage purely because someone else who might be better is playing arcane. And that they’re so far behind that person/people that it’s actively tanking their performance, and that of the entire spec. Never mind the fact that they’re basically at a level of play that a bot simulating their class is.
No, at that level the difference in performance of one player vs another on any given spec is extremely minor. many of them can pick up something else if they need to, as they’ve got the skillset for it. But they don’t, and prefer the class they’re on. If anything I’d say the 95th percentile for non-ftm rerolls are even more accurate. As those players are not only still very skilled, but understand the nuances of that spec to a greater degree of comfort/muscle memory.
we windwalkers need a buff badly
in pvp too we could use a defensive buff.
still feels way too squishy.