True, but at the same time, if the only role is dps you’re pretty limited to dmg zones on the ground for mechanics, which are arguably some of the easiest ones to dodge, at least with tanks you can create more varying mechanics, plus again, im not saying remove the healer specs, rather rework them into supports, you could have a variety of options with supports, which would create a better flow of group design, as a spec like discipline could be about empowering everyone with twlight damage, or restoration shaman could give ppl the potential to summon an elemental lord to aid the group, sitting there heal botting on every healer spec is boring asf…but you have to because it’s forced
1 Like
Hot take: Tanks should not need defensive cooldowns to tank trash for the majority of content.
In ludicrously high keys, obviously they will need them, but for the majority of players running keys up +12 or so and assuming appropriate gear for that level, a tank should be tuned to be able to handle full trash packs with basic active mitigation (Demons Spikes, Shield Block, Iron Fur, etc.) AND should not need to have those mitigations active for the initial pull, but only to ensure survival during the fight.
1 Like
Just remove defensive cooldowns from tanks. No need for such complexity.
The problem with that is that they’d need to take those defensives away or tanks would just pull more and rotate them anyway.
I keep saying this, they need to remember why people play the game.
Dps players don’t play to watch bars and pre-defensive one shot mechanics. They want to blast. They want to kick. They want to stun. They want their play to be reactive and in front of them.
Tank players don’t play to juggle plates. Tanks want to feel like a hardbody. They want to go toe to toe with the bad guy and take it all on the chin and give it back. I would go so far as to call every single magic-tank-buster a pure failure for the role.
Healer players don’t play to be a gimpy dps. They don’t want a tight rotation and blast the meters. They want to make good decisions. They want to be helpful. They want to zen. It’s not about shying away from difficulty, it’s about shunning the whack-a-mole, meter-chaser mentality.
All 3 want to be challenged where they live. Dps want dps challenges, kicks/stops/damage checks. Tanks want mitigation challenges, cool route planning. Healers want healing checks. Manageable dispels.
Don’t make dps healers. Don’t make tanks dps. And don’t make healers supports. That’s not why they play, and that’s why you guys are sitting in queue for 300 years. Tanks and healers are in exclusive relationships with dps they know can survive the dungeons. Or they’re in discord with so they can call them out. If you wanna bring back promiscuity, you need to remove the friction.
Tl;Dr: Challenge people where they live. Preserve the trinity.
2 Likes
Tank busters are literally added to give tanks gameplay.
You want to change CPM down to like 10 or something…
We have healing checks, and you want to remove them by making them drastically easier.
Either I’m not giving you the ball correctly or you’re wearing Crisco lotion. I never said anything like that.
1 Like
You keep saying how healing gameplay is frantic because people cast every second. The counter part to that, is slowing it down drastically.
How does casting 10 spells per minute sound to you?
I think you have me confused with someone else.
No, it’s more or less what you’ve posted for in the past (maybe in this thread too.) About how healers don’t want to be dps. And your solution is to give them time to make decision. (Aka make them need to cast way less.)
I see.
So it’s an ad absurdem argument? I literally never said anything about APM, at all. I’m more than willing to talk about what I actually said instead of what you wanted me to say.
How else would you give healers time to make decisions?
If they’re casting every second, they’re “dps.”
So what do you mean by this:
Every global, is a decision that people have to make.
I want to know what healer gameplay under your vision looks like.
Probably a gameplay more based around cooldown and mana management than raw throughput. Fewer damage events, more downtime for movement, filler casts (like smite or wrath or whatever, maybe to reclaim mana). Less forced movement. Probably entirely remove interrupts and CC from PvE healers.
The nuance here is important. I’m going to over explain what I mean, but don’t take it as of I’m talking down to you, I just want to make sure I’m clear.
As example, think about the last boss in COT. Currently, if (as a dps) one takes the smash with no DR, they just die unless they’re over geared. So right away, any dps without a short cd DR just flops if they don’t stack verse. The healer then has to heal back that ~20M damage while moving to avoid the shift (the balls). This happens repeatedly throughout the fight. Even if you live the smash without a defensive, the healer will likely be unable to get you enough HP to live through the bind/splice next.
Under my model, the healer would be able to defensive the group to handle the incoming spike damage, then clean up the leftovers and have time to regenerate some mana with wrath spam (for example) before the next event. Fumbling that would still be a wipe, as would going full hog and emptying the tank before the end of the fight. The incoming damage pattern is fine, the distribution of responsibilities is what causes the group friction/wipe/reset/mad forum goes/lost sub.
I want to get out in front of this too: I expect a predominantly dps player to look at that and go “huh, that sounds like I wouldn’t like that.” I get that. You’re not supposed to. It’s different. And it’s supposed to be.
1 Like
This is wrong though because people are doing as high as +17s for COT, so by doing a 10 or 12, it’s like they’re constantly using two defensives just by doing nothing at all.
As for the concept of reducing defensives available to dps, that’s fine.
That’s where skill comes in?
People really want to be in the position of a disc or holy priest?
Healers didn’t have interrupts for longer than they have had it. So interrupts being available to healers is whatever.
1 Like
Infinite scaling kind of blows this all apart unless they stop making damage scale with key levels, which I’m not sure is great because it adds a lot of nuance and complexity.
1 Like
Hey, I think you’re kinda missing what I’m saying. I’m not suggesting we should scrap defensive cooldowns for tanks altogether. They’re essential for handling unexpected situations, big damage spikes, and tougher content—especially in higher keys.
What I’m getting at is that for most players running keys up to around +12, tanks shouldn’t have to rely so heavily on defensive cooldowns just to survive regular trash pulls. We should be able to handle these mobs using our basic active mitigation like Demon Spikes, Shield Block, or Ironfur.
This would make tanking more accessible for newer players who might find constantly juggling cooldowns a bit overwhelming. It’d also let us focus more on positioning, threat management, and teamwork, rather than stressing over cooldown timing every pull.
And of course, defensive cooldowns would still be super important in higher-level content where the challenge ramps up. So yeah, it’s not about removing them—just making tanking smoother and more approachable in the content most folks are playing.
If you did one pack at a time, I’m sure that’s possible. Stronger tanks usually means larger pulls.
1 Like
One pack at a time is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. On my DH, even outgearing the content, if I don’t have a cooldown ready at the start of the pull, I can get insta-killed immediately on pull.
Now, you could argue this is a problem with Vengeance DH right now, and you might be right. I haven’t tried tanking much on other classes.
But you’re also doing difficult content. No one is dying in heroics. Don’t even need tanks there.
Plus , why are we including +12?
Completely true, and again, I’m not suggesting this should never happen to tanks. Quite the contrary. What I am suggesting, is that prior to TWW, tanking felt much, much better, and I did not need to have a full-blown cooldown rotation just to survive trash packs. The OP wants to “unnerf” tanks, meaning he (and many others) have noticed how much weaker tanks feel in M+. That’s all.
I personally feel that far too much design space has been devoted to making trash pulls dangerous.
1 Like
Tanks are a lot more durable now, they just can’t heal as much. There are less outright tank deaths from my experience. They need more healer attention, but damage intake is better.
Before? DF, tank goes from full hp to dead within the span of 1 second. Now, they kinda die over 10 or more.