That’s very true, but a 4-5 button rotation with some shorter 30-45 sec micro management abilities/dots/cd’s is a lot more dynamic and interesting then something like fury warrior pressing raging blow into rampage over and over and over.
I mained arcane mage in wotlk and that was just arcane blast spam as long as possible until you needed mana, not fun 
The problem is each spec already had its own 30-45 second micro management abilites before blizzard retardedly threw SnD to all 3 specs. Sin rogue had toxic blade and exsanguinate. Sub rogue had shadow dance management. SnD adds to neither of those themes while making both themes extremely clunky.
And that’s why the game is in a state of perpetual atrophy. Some people actually believe that to be true. The fact is that hinging your judgments on a /inspect instead of the validity of what’s written is rather petty.
(I did not bring skill to the table at all, only design; lower skill requirements on a design should have a lower skill ceiling – the insult was pretty egregious and I’m done responding.)
Okay, bye. You made your argument, it was found wanting. Not anybody else’s problem.
I agree. Managing a rotation while in the heat of battle is fun and engaging. However, the way SnD is implemented doesn’t really add to that. Many players act like SnD is some special ability that separates the elite from the mediocre. It just doesn’t.
All I’m saying is SnD does not make a player more skillful and it doesn’t make sense as a finisher. Maybe put it on a cooldown or make it a ppm ability.
I’m not one of them. I just like this ability, and don’t want to rid of it entirely, like some ppl.
I agree it should be changed or just removed entirely. The only reason its relevant at all is because of the passive Shadow Techniques, which in itself is an incredibly boring passive.
Why people act like SnD is this brilliant ability this day in age is beyond me.
if slice and dice is removed, then, I fully expect a damage buff, either in builders, finishers, or autos.
I mean I can’t disagree with that, I just think more pruning of classes will make the game boring, even though SnD is a pretty dull spell to begin with.
Maybe if they made it so you could refresh SnD if you rupture a target while SnD is <5 seconds of duration left, that way it adds a bit of min maxing to the rotation where if played well you wont have to waste combo points? I dunno, im always for more abilities in the game.
The core issue is that SnD is a way to spend combo points that:
Take, as an opposing example, Dark Transformation for Unholy.
SnD as a concept is one wanting for iteration, rather than simply bringing back the dull attack speed bonus.
and I’m the opposite. I’d rather have 3 abilities that really work well together vs 6 that you use because a button lights up.
I do like that the new talent trees will offer choice in this regard. There are some paths that provide extra abilities, some that offer passives instead.
Because Rogue is a class that’s all about investment and return. When you use foresight to plan ahead for a damage window or a Go, you are rewarded for it. SnD helps fulfill this design goal, and it’s good.
I mean, if Blizz wants to keep iterating on it, that’s fine. But I’m all for having it as a maintenance buff because I think it’s good for the rotation. We went through two expansions where SnD was absent and they were the two absolute worst expansions for Rogue design.
No it doesnt. Frankly im starting to think a lot of you dont actually play rogue. Theres no foresight involved. You press it once during the opener and again everytime it gets low no matter what youre doing. It completely interrupts the Sin and Sub rotation. And you cant hold off on the refresh because that will hurt you in the end. Its more of a punishment than a reward when used correctly. Its not a button that feels good to press.
Once again it works for outlaw because of how the spec is designed. Sin and Sub are designed differently.
Thats also entirely false. Now i know for a fact you dont actually play the spec. Outlaw has had it for every expansion. Sin did not have it for Legion and BfA and still played well in both. Sub did not have it in Legion and was the preferred spec for the whole xpac. It didnt have it in BfA either but the reason it didnt play well isnt because “lul no SnD” its because blizz completely gipped it during the first raid tier and left it in an incomplete state for the rest of the expansion. SnD was not asked for yet they shoehorned it into both specs anyway. And then added bandages because it wasnt adding anything to the specs.
SnD doesnt work because the specs arent designed with it in mind.
You can’t take this in isolation. The point was to take all three points as parts of the whole sum of the issue.
Windfury is a problem for entirely different reasons, and is a maintenance group buff. Bit of a different ballpark of an issue.
Knowing it works passively doesn’t mean it actively enhances gameplay. Because it really doesn’t.
I’m not so sure I agree with that, but you’re welcome to your opinion, just as I’m welcome to mine. Maintenance buffs aren’t good or bad for rotations and that’s the whole point I’m making- they’re just kinda there. There’s nothing exciting or interesting about SnD, and it’s not an expression of skill to maintain it. Maintaining it is just something you do because it’s what you need to do.
Sure, as a talent that wasn’t worth taking during Legion and BfA.
Doing well numerically doesn’t mean a spec is well designed. Subtlety in 7.0 was pure garbage design, and its soft rework in 7.2.5 was barely tolerable, but certainly not good. BfA Sub managed to be even more dry than Legion Sub, and SnD’s absence is definitely part of the reason why.
I think it does. For Sub and Outlaw, maintaining SnD translates directly into higher energy regen, so you’re rewarded for keeping it up. For Assassin, the DF talent Dashing Scoundrel also seems like it’ll reward SnD upkeep.
Except people did for the most part enjoy the spec design. I literally just explained to you what the problem with BfA sub was. Are you illiterate? SnD wouldve added no positive interactions in either of those expansions because the spec isnt designed with SnD in mind. Once again why no one takes WQ players seriously.
Youre quite literally thinking about the ability wrong. The button should be rewarding to press on its own. Talents shouldnt have to be taken to make the ability feel better. Thats a sign of poor design and that the ability just doesnt fit.
I find it rewarding on its own already. It doesn’t need to do anything immediate for me to appreciate it and recognize what it does. Even if it is an issue, the solution isn’t “just get rid of it,” the solution is to make it do more.
Making it do more does not fix the issues. As the issues are with the design.
the choices are…
Different idea. Passive ability that has SnD trigger for 1 seconds for every CP spent. Doesnt stack past 10 seconds. After having SnD up for 50 seconds the ability becomes useable to give you double the attack speed for 10 seconds. This would be off the gcd.
Now its an ability the same effort to maintain. But you remove the clunkiness. The active aspect of it also gives you the control to buff yourself after a pause where you were doing a mechanic or finished a pull without having to stupidly spend CP on it.