5% if you’re playing perfect, and you aren’t meaning there’s an even larger disparity.
Play how you want obviously, but that doesn’t make SnD a meaningful buff
I think you are right in that there is no noticeable change. And that’s why there’s so many Rogues who dislike it. Even though, if you tested your damage over a 5min boss fight with and without it, the DPS loss would be significant.
I don’t think they can fix that, though. As I’ve mentioned previously in this thread, any other buff finisher will have problems Slice and Dice doesn’t have. And I really wouldn’t want to deal with those problems just to have my buff finisher’s impact be more clear on the DPS meter. 
E: There’s also the make passive idea and simply not have a buff finisher. That would work fine if Blizzard was okay us not having the button. But, I want to say something in regards to the “choice” idea. It probably wouldn’t work. The increase in complexity at that point would probably lead to the non-passive version being a noticeable damage increase over the passive. Which would make any Rogue feel forced to use it. Because, let’s be honest, everyone’s a min/maxer.
Slice and dice is worthless honestly it only somewhat useful and i really mean “SOME WHAT USEFUL” if you have the talent that lets you heal from it. since it doesn’t break stealth to use if you get burst, you clock of shadows, vanish, flask, slice and dice with 5 combo points. if you also have improved flask you can basically get 75% HP easy. So basically it lets you reset faster so you can pressure again. but since you vansih is go you better kill them once you appear again
solves everyone’s problem.
I honestly would like to have the key bind free.
But, that only fixes Outlaw.
Or are you saying Assassination and Subtlety would get Roll the Bones? 
You say it wouldn’t work because the non passive would be more noticeable. Of course it would. Blizzard has explicitly stated before active abilities SHOULD do more than passive equivalents if used properly.
And if people feel obligated to choose something based on the perception that its better and thus “mandatory” that’s on them. That doesn’t mean the choice isn’t worth doing. It wouldn’t be a big improvement over the choice given now, but it would be something.
I personally don’t get the arguments made against “better” solutions on the basis they aren’t perfect. Nothing is perfect. It’s about balancing tradeoffs. And making the active more significant to press, alongside the option for total passivity, if balanced right, would indeed be better based on most people’s expressed thoughts here.
Oh, I just mean it wont work in that the people who want Slice and Dice deleted will still be here petitioning it to be deleted because they wont like taking the DPS loss.
Also, in this situation, would talents like Cut to the Chase and Premeditation still exist?
I only really care about outlaw 
+1 for getting rid of SnD. It’s not fun spending combo points on a maintenance buff. It doesn’t even make sense as a finisher, you build up all these combo points for a big finisher attack and…nope just going to attack a little faster. If anything SnD is a “starter” and should be a combo point builder not a spender. It should just be a passive or baked back into the class.
To anyone saying you don’t need to use it, sadly the specs are balanced around using it. Assassination is pretty energy starved so that extra regen alone makes it basically mandatory. The same goes for all energy increasing talents. I said this in the alpha/beta forums, putting in abilities/talents that increase class resource generation on a class that is starved for it makes them mandatory and removes choice. It’s just super lazy design.
You absolutely are a contrarian. Your points make zero sense whatsoever.
SnD is an “avoid the downside” buff. If you don’t use it, you’re nerfing yourself, but god do we wish we could not use it. It doesn’t feel good to push, it doesn’t feel like you’re buffing yourself - it feels like the BASELINE of the specs is “SnD is up” and if it isn’t you’re under baseline.
There is no decision making here, there is no “hmm but whatabout”. You need SnD up, if you don’t have it you’re bad. You can make a wrong decision and not put it up… but that’s simply a wrong decision. There’s alos no payoff; the payoff is “here’s what you should be doing by default, but lucky you pressed that button or you wouldn’t be”.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter at all to me, it’s a weakaura that I push when the ability is below x seconds left. It certainly has zero discernable impact on decisionmaking or gameplay. I use it because I know it is the mathematical right choice, even though it feels worse than pressing any other finisher.
It amazes me that ferals managed to dump savage roar and rogues somehow got themselves stuck with SnD. Feral’s only real maintenance buff now is bloodtalons, and you get that from pushing actual damage buttons that do something when you push them. It’s clunky as a mofo but it works. I would much rather some form of gameplay reward loop to enact snd than consuming valuable cp to do it. I have no idea what such a thing would be… spend x cp within y seconds, or something that cements actual rotational complexity and rewards appropriate pooling and spending or something rather than ho-hum snd less than 5 push snd boredom.
Your perspective also makes you look like a contrarian. All buffs could be viewed as “avoid the downside,” if you choose. And in PvP there absolutely is a decision to be made. And there also absolutely are payoffs (at least for sin). It also sounds like you’re leaning towards removal or total passivity, which is also (just in my opinion) inferior to reworking it to be more impactful, or giving players the option between a reworked more impactful version, or total passivity.
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Feels fine to me. I press it and I get faster combo point gen, faster energy regen, and periodic healing.
On Subtlety in pvp in particular, you don’t necessarily need to. You can still have a potent Dance window even without SnD, but if you can look ahead and plan for it by setting it up early, you’re rewarded with a more potent Dance window.
Savage Roar felt bad to maintain because of how slow and methodical Feral’s combo point generation is. On a spec that casts its finishers less frequently than any Rogue spec, SR didn’t have enough tangible gameplay impact to feel good in your rotation when you could use Bite instead. It made a lot more sense to either delete or rework SR than SnD.
I’m glad someone else realizes this, lol.
It’s so interesting how people here gang up on SnD, yet no one complains about Rupture, which has less overall class interaction that SnD does. I enjoy having both of them.
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Some people just outting themselves as not really pvping. I am by no means good. I’m casual trash. But it’s just factually incorrect that there wouldn’t be a decision to be made. Countless times the kill target will be at 5-15% HP and SnD will be dropping off. Do you refresh or just ignore and kill?
That right there is a question you cannot fundamentally answer without knowing more about the specifics of the situation, and anyone who cant see that is just having a bad case of PvE brain.
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They way you describe SnD as the second coming, but then can’t think of a single thing Rupture does is…
Like are we sure this isn’t just bait at this point?
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Since when is “less” the same as “a single thing?”
Common man. We can all disagree and argue points without straw manning people’s arguments. You probably have less money than Bill Gates, but that doesn’t mean you’re broke.
I get that feeling too, when I hit Envenom. 
Just saying.
This is the strangest reading of my reply.
Anyway, Rupture does more than SnD thats the point.
I think I have a solution
On the Rogue talent tree, remove Blind and make it a base ability. Replace with a choice node: Cut to the Chase - Slice and Dice is now a passive ability or Improved Slice and Dice - Slice and Dice increases Haste by 1%
Assassination tree: Cut to the Chase is replaced with Necrotic Wounds - Increase Master by 1%
Outlaw tree: Combat Potency - In addition to current effect, also increases Mastery by 1%
Subtlety tree: Relentless Strikes - In addition to current effect, also increases Mastery by 1%
Note: Use a talent at the top of each tree that is basically mandatory.
End result is, each spec gets a choice of:
A. SnD passive along with a secondary stat increase
B. Increase for Haste and another secondary stat.
Alternatively: Instead of Mastery, use a stat appropriate for each spec and adjust the percent to achieve the desired net effect.
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How do you figure Rupture has more interactions and positive effects than SnD?
When did I imply I couldn’t think of anything Rupture does? You’re putting words in my mouth. I said Rupture has less overall class interaction than SnD, which is true.
Envenom does not give you increased resource generation or periodic healing like SnD does. Envenom is satisfying for different reasons.
Nope.
For Subtlety, Rupture is nothing but a dot. Meanwhile SnD directly increases energy and combo point generation through Shadow Techniques, translating into more Eviscerates, more CDR on Shadow Dance, and smoother Dance windows.
On Outlaw, Rupture is nonexistent, but SnD increases energy regen through Main Gauche and Fatal Flourish, leading to higher combo point generation, and thus more CDR.
Rupture has the most interaction on Assassination, of course, interacting with Venomous Wounds for energy regen, and a variety of talents for more damage. This is fitting since Assassin is the dot focused spec. However, SnD’s attack speed increase gives you more poison applications during Envenom and Shiv windows for more damage, and drastically more potent Kingsbane windows due to Kingsbane’s damage increasing with each lethal poison application. SnD makes Amplifying Poison stack faster, and makes Dragon-Tempered Blades more potent since all four of your poisons will be applied more frequently. SnD translates to increased energy regen with Dashing Scoundrel, and it works together with Rupture in Lethal Dose.
Not to mention how SnD makes Wound Poison stack faster and gives healing over time with Recuperator.
SnD does, in fact, have more overall class interaction than Rupture, yet no one clamors to have Rupture removed. This isn’t a rant against Rupture either, I enjoy both abilities in my rotation.
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