Can we finally get playable the high elves?

[Henceforth-area-52]

@Lightspeêd-proudmoore

no, theres no justification for killing people for a crime they didnt commit

She didn’t kill anyone, according to Chronicles… lol

[Lightspeêd-proudmoore]

did the silver covenant feed sunreavers to sharks?

[Maizou-proudmoore (Maizou)]

Even in the original story, the only sunreavers that canonically died were ones that attacked Jaina. They have gone on record like 6 times that the NPC Jaina randomly killing people as she walks the street was a coding bug they didn’t consider important enough to fix and risk breaking other things. SHOCKINGLY people don’t have to stand idle by and let someone kill them. So she killed them in self defense.

What you SHOULD be saying is “There’s no justification in trying to kill your leader when she orders your arrest for treason.”

And now that they’ve further elaborated in Chronicles that many sunreavers were guilty, yes it was irrevocably justified v

[Hoheh-quelthalas]

They’re already playable, from the eyes customization to, you know, their frigging capitol still existing (well, half of it anyway).

[Dreadmoon-saurfang (Dreadmoon)]

.

[Henceforth-area-52]

@Maizou-proudmoore

They have gone on record like 6 times that the NPC Jaina randomly killing people as she walks the street was a coding bug they didn’t consider important enough to fix and risk breaking other things

Surprisingly there was no record of them going on record about that lol.
But it is gone anyway, Chronicles just changed that.

[Tyserene-wyrmrest-accord]

@Henceforth-area-52

See, that is an odd concept. The alliance agreement never stated that it was alliance territory, that is, humans could just go there and settle if want. That was and still Quel’Thalas territory, and the alliance has no bearing or any sort of ownership over that land.

The Alliance and the Horde are both alliances of several countries. That doesn’t mean the countries involved have free reign to establish colonies within each others land. Thats silly and has never been what the Alliance, or Horde, are.

Whether you like it or not it was once Alliance territory. The country involved just pulled out, and it became not Alliance territory. (Later Horde territory.)

@Henceforth-area-52

I am talking about the events that took place during MoP as Quel’Thalas was in talks to join the alliance,

That was never what we were talking about originally. That just confuses where you were with things and since they hadn’t been in the Alliance during those talks that doesn’t really make sense with what we were talking about.

@Henceforth-area-52

Oh I am sorry, they just retconned that so now Lor’Themar Theron pulling out of the talks and deciding to “Fight for the Horde” against Garrosh sounds even sillier but I’m not the one writing the story, or rewriting it for that matter.

The new chronicle book is stupid, whether or not its lore. Until they change the events that actually took place in game I think players should just ignore it. lol

@Henceforth-area-52

We have conflicting information here, because from the novel (which was fanfic at first then turned into canon with adjustments later), when Lor’Themar visits the Lodge they were expecting him to rescind their banishment, which didn’t happen, so they weren’t banished altogether with the return of Rommath from Outlands because the visit happens AFTER that, and the circumstances of their banishment are still uncertain and were never addressed. It is either possible that they decided to identify themselves as High elves and didn’t want to continue with the Blood Elf philosophy for whatever reason and got banished from Silvermoon, but again it was never mentioned anywhere and there is absolutely no other occurrence of a group of Blood Elves going back into identifying themselves as High Elves, so that is unlikely.

Fair enough, though I still don’t know how much they were “still with the Alliance” in the canon in that case. They still seem an odd group to include overall.

As an Alliance player generally I wouldn’t really consider them Alliance. (I also swear they were neutral to the Alliance and Horde in Vanilla but my memory ain’t good on that point.)

@Henceforth-area-52

Fair compared to what, to Farstrider Lodge? yes, there is just one living there. Compared to Quel’Danil Lodge? That’s a no.

Compared to the population around them. Theres a lot of high elves compared to the rest of Stormwinds population. This also likely ties into the 7th Legions High Elves, as I suspect they mostly come from the ones living within human lands… But thats assumption.

@Henceforth-area-52

Well that is stopping. They are a dying race. They do not reproduce.

Like I’ve said before its not a measure that matters. Blizzard will always have as many of anything as they need. Nor is their population even a remote consideration compared to the Ren’dorei who have been made into a race so its a null issue.

@Henceforth-area-52

Because they were part of the Elves that decide to remain with their “allies” and not return to Quel’Thalas.

But most of them did effectively remain with Quel’thalas’ allies at least. I don’t know still an odd group to worry about in the context of the conversation here. (Though we do know one Darkfallen returned to the Alliance at least and is now hanging out with the Void Elves.)

@Henceforth-area-52

But then again it is World of Warcraft, war can start any time again and where will be their allegiances. Just say “not my problem” and stay out? I don’t think that is something that Lor’themar Theron would do because he knows better.

The way Blizzard seems to be forcing the just… total end of faction conflict despite how good that could still be, I suspect its unlikely to happen again.

I would love to see where those allegiances ended up though if it did start up again. Watching that story unfold would be enthralling to me. lol

@Henceforth-area-52

Here is how math is fun. The amount of high elf population prior to third was roughly ~148k. That is a lot of pointy ears. Well, not so much anymore since Arthas killed 90% of them. That is also a LOT.

Gonna stop ya here. There are no canonical populations in WoW and it also doesn’t matter. Blizzard doesn’t care about it so we shouldn’t either. Its a null issue.

@Henceforth-area-52

That is highly relevant. They aren’t welcome in Silvermoon and in fact have been banished as they were told to not tap into that power because of how dangerous it is for the Sunwell - keep in mind that it happens after Alleria’s incident in Sunwell, and unlike Alleria that was allowed to go into Silvermoon to meet Arator, Umbric and his gang do not share the same prestige among Quel’Thalas.

Sure but it has nothing to do with the Silver Covenant nor the High Elves.

They only matter in that they are a group of Thalassian elves that shows the mentality of the world around them. They have a desire for Silvermoon to return to the Alliance fold. We can assume this is not a singular thing especially since we know the Silver Covenant elves also express that desire.

@Henceforth-area-52

I don’t see peace as an option for Silver covenant and the Sin’dorei without them backing down on their political stances and we have seen like zero acts towards that until now.

Peace could happen. But I doubt either side will jump at it readily.

I’m betting Midnight will have it go somewhere along the lines of “Sunwell under threat” “High Elves of the Silver Covenant manage to assist” “Void Elves manage to assist somehow while proving that they’re able to stop the potential threat to the Sunwell of their existence”. “Everyone agrees to let bygones be bygones and ignore the literal genocide.”

I’ll hate it a fair amount… unless they somehow manage to get the Blood Elves/Sunreavers and the High Elves/Silver Covenant to really talk and come to some sort of… apology? I don’t know. How do you make good on genocide?

Still I think both sides could come to the realization that there are too few of them to not just end their hostilities to one another.

(Be nice if the Silver Covenant could get some sort of actual punishment for the purge for once though.)

@Henceforth-area-52

That could be said the same for them with the alliance, perhaps because the Silver Covenant didn’t see their own family and loved ones being destroyed by the scourge and the survivors having gone through almost to their deaths by the hands of the alliance.

Absolutely. I’m sure the Blood Elves feel the same way the High Elves do but about the Alliance as a whole.

I don’t blame them.

@Henceforth-area-52

Well they didn’t do much and barely got to eversong woods, they were pushed back pretty easily and it was the Amani trolls that kept fighting in Quel’Thalas, what was described as a “hopeless fight”.

Folk still died, their lands were still attacked, they lost some of their defensive runestones threatening their entire people.

If the Horde hadn’t splintered then they’d have been in a much more dire position from the Horde too.

For some that will be more than enough. Hence the break between the two side of thalassian.

@Henceforth-area-52

Well, the whole reason for them to join the Horde it was because only the Horde offered aid for them to deal with the undead and start rebuilding their kingdom. Sylvanas vouched for them and had the forsaken to aid them.

It was the Horde that cleared Zul’Aman, so making the Horde the ones who ended the threat to Quel’thalas there.

So, all the good talk about Silver Covenant just wishing them to not be aligned with the Horde, just got to remember that these elves were hiding inside Dalaran for some years and have not even considered going back home to help their own kind. To me, they deserve nothing, they are owed nothing and they should never be welcome back into Silvermoon, or even Quel’Thalas.

No notes here, honestly.

But I do get the concept that the Silver Covenant doesn’t see it that way (in game).

@Henceforth-area-52

Do we have a source for that, I’d really like to know, because for example, Voren’thal is considered a very old Elf and there are some lines in some quests referring to his health condition, etc.

Again the book Vereesa was introduced in. Day of the Dragon I think…

That said I will say Blizzard has been playing very loose with the lifespans, age ranges and general concept of age with the Quel’dorei as a whole basically since WCII so…

@Henceforth-area-52

That’s not the case anymore. The elves might’ve been underestimated by Garrosh and treated unfairly for that time, and even seen as not fierce or even worthy warriors by Orcs, they have earned their place in the Horde. The Sin’dorei are as fierce as the Orcs are when it comes to protect their own land. They might not look so strong, green-ish (or brown-ish) as the Orcs, but still, they are and the Horde learned to appreciate that.

Lor’themar Theron is well respected among the Horde and he could easily be a Warchief should he want.

Plus, the marriage of Lor’themar and Thalyssra kinda of bring even closer both Suramar and Quel’Thalas together, so, the Sin’dorei is not alone anymore as the Nightborne aren’t either.

If anything, Lor’themar recalling all High Elves to return home is coming from a position of Strength, not weakness as you have pointed.

I mean more on the level of there are still few Quel’dorei left in the world and they’re very aware of how fast that can change.

Its unquestionable that the Horde has effectively led the Blood Elves and Quel’thalas to a much better position economically, socially and politically across the world and in the Horde.

Lor’themar as Warchief would be badass…

@Henceforth-area-52

I don’t think he does feel that way towards the Ren’dorei, but mostly disappointment because of their decision they are dividing even more Quel’thalas. They know the power they’re tapping is an undeniable risk to the Sunwell, and they should know better the risk for their people losing the Sunwell again.

Hard to say. They haven’t talked too much about it directly anywhere. Most notable point I can think of right now was at the beginning of BfA during the fall of the Undercity. Hes quite “irate” at the Void Elves who show up to help.

I doubt he likes them much at this time though regardless of how things have cooled since.

@Henceforth-area-52

The only reference about this is in the first war, in Chronicles volume 2:

Day of the Dragon goes into it quite well on the details. (Fairly sure its Day of the Dragon).

He charms the leaders of the Alliance, and helps to push a wedge between the human kingdoms and the elves. But again during that book it was more he was increasing the feelings that were already there. Anasterian didn’t like the Alliance from the get go, Deathwing just helped to push him to be a little more annoying to the rest of the Alliance before they pulled out fully.

@Henceforth-area-52

If you see the current Horde as the same as the old Horde, then the current alliance is the same as the Alliance of Lordaeron, and the actions of Garithos should make the alliance give you the ick.

I wouldn’t say that I see them (Old Horde/New Horde Old Alliance/New Alliance) the same in either case but they are both connected to one another especially within the world itself.

Garithos was a racist commander of the remnant Alliance forces and I also don’t think he was entirely representative of the Alliance as a whole. Like… he was a representative as he was a General controlling the local forces, but I doubt he was representative of the people living in Stormwind or Theramoore (both of which I think were still being built/rebuilt at the time but same concept.)

But yeah, no, folk who try to say he wasn’t Alliance are just wrong. The Elves have plenty of reason to look at him, point at him, and say Alliance bad to us. And its not like the Alliance was kind after that point either.

@Henceforth-area-52

Why don’t you elaborate about that

I’d rather not go into every use of the Silver Covenant since then… or how unconnected they are to Rhonin in any capacity. Aside from Books Blizzard never really has Rhonin or Vereesa even interact. But to claim the Silver Covenant doesn’t matter because Rhonin died is an odd choice.

@Henceforth-area-52

Well, after that he died so she’s now a widow and started blaming everyone for the death of her husband

Well… Blaming the Horde anyways. They were responsible for his death…

@Henceforth-area-52

It got retconned, though… so, not sure how much extent of it because I don’t even want to spend a dime on Chronicles Volume 3, but from what I read, Blood Elves bad, Aethas Bad, Sunreavers Bad, Rommnath Bad, everyone bad, except Jaina, the alliance and silver covenant.

I keep hoping Blizzard will come out and explain that they wrote it funny and meant it to be more what it obviously is in WoW as we literally see it… but they’ll probably be cowards since its hard to address literal genocide.

TWW doesn’t really look like its going to address it either and I think they’re setting up the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers becoming buddy buddy.

@Lightspeêd-proudmoore

man. you two are in a hard core lore debate.

I mean… its fun at least.

And while I’m having a debate I don’t find myself upset at Henceforth. This has actually been rather nice compared to some debates I’ve been in.

@Henceforth-area-52

Problem is when the story is rewritten.

This does very much feel bad for Blizzard to have done. I hope they fix it before its too late.

Its real hard to claim the Sunreavers were to blame when even in that case Genocide is still Genocide. So how the Silver Covenant and Jaina are still not at fault here is beyond me.

[Brueggar-silver-hand]

@Gwennedl-grobbulus

Blood Elves and Void Elves whether you wanna agree or not, are factually high elves.

This is a mix-up of terms – They have the same heritage and are physiologically the same (except for the green eyes from the fel influence) but the term “high elf” is used to talk about the elves that stayed with the Alliance , as opposed to going off with Kael’thas and becoming blood elves. So it has a political meaning.

Calling them different “races” may not be the most accurate but they are different groups of people, and if you played through MOP Remix and did the Silver Covenant quests, you’ll see that the High Elves are in fact a distinct group of people who don’t really like the Blood Elves too much.

For folks like me, we want to have High Elves be playable so that we could make a character with that character history and have the game bring that to life. It’s kind of hard to make a blood elf and RP as an elf that stayed with the Alliance when you can’t do alliance quests and enter Alliance cities Void Elves are on the Alliance, but their whole thing imposes a lot on the personal history of the character as well.

[Nelfas-azshara]

@Vala-moon-guard

Hey!

thank you both for explaining this to that horde filth.

[Felleynd-aggramar]

do they walk around puffing pipes the whole time??

[Pyri-shadowsong]

@Brueggar-silver-hand

Void Elves are on the Alliance, but their whole thing imposes a lot on the personal history of the character

sounds like an RP problem with an RP solution

[Felleynd-aggramar]

blood elves are horde

[Amoncarter-bladefist]

@Nelfas-azshara

People want playable high elves,

Here’s looking at you kid!

Grands can come true…

[Henceforth-area-52]

@Tyserene-wyrmrest-accord

Gonna stop ya here. There are no canonical populations in WoW and it also doesn’t matter. Blizzard doesn’t care about it so we shouldn’t either. Its a null issue.

Well, here is where I’ll catch you.
They have given these numbers. You just don’t accept that.

They were given in between the Blood Elves and High Elves section of the Warcraft Encyclopedia, and the Warcraft wiki has it pretty clear how they got to those numbers.

Like:

90% of the survivors were high elves that became blood elves.
It tells me that 10% of the survivors didn’t become blood elves.

Out of the 90% that survived, Kael’thas brought 15% to Outlands.
It is estimated that the numbers he brought to Outlands to be at least 2000. How? Well, Archmage Vargoth says “thousands”. Thousands is more than a thousand.

Considering that at least 2000 went to Outlands (and again we don’t know how many became Scryer also), and they were 15% of the Blood Elves, that left 85% in Azeroth.

So… here is the beauty of math and why I said ~ 148.000 (roughly):

15% of the survivors means that 1,35% of the original population went to Outland.
If 2000 equals to 1,35%… how much equals to 100%? Ain’t that roughly 148.000 mate~~

So if that estimate is correct then you can get your high elf surviving population at 1% of it or so.

And these are all information given by Blizzard, in official sources.

@Tyserene-wyrmrest-accord

Sure but it has nothing to do with the Silver Covenant nor the High Elves.

OK I’ll stop you right there because I haven’t correlated them, you did. Maybe take a step back and review.

I stated:

@Henceforth-area-52

The void elves are enemies of Quel’Thalas and their mere presence presents risk to the Sunwell and maybe even the world.

You said:

@Tyserene-wyrmrest-accord

Irrelevant. They were very recently Blood Elves, their viewpoints are a window to how the world actually sees this.

What did I say after that?

@Henceforth-area-52

That is highly relevant. They aren’t welcome in Silvermoon and in fact have been banished as they were told to not tap into that power because of how dangerous it is for the Sunwell

@Henceforth-area-52

Umbric and his gang do not share the same prestige among Quel’Thalas.

So… how did you put Silver Covenant or high elves here??? You made me look thrice because I thought I have messed up something.

The Void Elves are banished from Silvermoon, full stop, with good reason.
But I agree with you, so far they haven’t done anything like the Silver Covenant.

@Tyserene-wyrmrest-accord

Well… Blaming the Horde anyways. They were responsible for his death…

Well, still blaming the wrong people.

This was orchestrated by Garrosh. If you had the chance to play Theramore scenario in MoP Remix from the Horde perspective, you’ll see that they invade Theramore to rescue a prisoner, only to find out that they were the distraction (unknown to them) and the bomb was on the way.

And she tells that “they killed my husband” pointing to her own kind, when it was not all of them, even the Sunreavers were protecting Theramore at that point (canonically). It was just one elf that helped them with the mana bomb and he wasn’t even a sunreaver lol.

@Nelfas-azshara

thank you both for explaining this to that horde filth.

This is not RP forums so stop with this.

If you can’t argue, debate, stay home, don’t go to the internet, and most importantly, don’t go offending other people because you’re helpless.

[Pyri-shadowsong]

and void elfs are alliance. case closed!

[Gwennedl-grobbulus]

@Blastkrizzle-wyrmrest-accord

This is not the problem.
The actual High Elves are Alliance-alligned, which is what people want to play. Not Blood Elves, we already have this.

Ignore the Void Elves I see.

@Blastkrizzle-wyrmrest-accord

The theme they represent. The Void is represented in a corrupted or untamed way, which is why the hair styles varies from “classic with a twist” to “uncombed”. This is not what the players have in mind while playing the race and goes also against how hero characters are represented. Xal’atath doesn’t look like she misses her shampoo, so it’s a valid point to bring up, similar how Alleria was corrupted and how the race is represented.

Because it doesn’t mean anything to you, it still is a design choice the players do not agree with. And you have simply to accept this.

It doesn’t matter… they are in the game, whether you wanna accept it or not.

We don’t need more elves… Night elves, void elves, blood elves and Nightborne… we need more unique races that aren’t the same generic fantasy races like Elves, where is Ogre? Tuskar? Murlocs? etc.

[Blastkrizzle-wyrmrest-accord]

@Gwennedl-grobbulus

We don’t need more elves… Night elves, void elves, blood elves and Nightborne… we need more unique races that aren’t the same generic fantasy races like Elves, where is Ogre? Tuskar? Murlocs? etc.

Void Elves were a mistake. Retool them to a Hero Class and give the Alliance their High Elves and everything is fine again. Let several races turn into Void-version of themselves.

[Gwennedl-grobbulus]

Doesn’t matter what you think they were… they are High Elves.

We don’t need more Elves, we have enough… 4 choices and none of them are so unique or different from the others, only reason they’re popular is because people wanna sexualize the crap out of their characters. We need unique races that aren’t the same old generic fantasy race… no reskins or anything.

[Athernon-faerlina]

@Gwennedl-grobbulus

We don’t need more Elves, we have enough…

if we are getting another dwarf race, i don’t see the problem with adding a fifth elf race, why not?

[Weedgoku-illidan]

we’re getting harronir as an allied race (probably 11.1.5, maybe 11.2.5) and theyre the link between trolls and elves so technically kinda