Sure she would have been a moron but she also would have lost her position as a war chief if she refused. Orcs view that as scared and not followed her if she wouldn’t fight.
Baine could have either ended it or exposed her for what she was if he would have just had a spine.
A Mak’gora is decided by both contestants. You don’t just get to pop out of the brush and shout ‘Mak’gora!’
I know and if she would have said “nah” I’m pretty sure she would have lost the support of the orcs.
Baine had reasons to issue the challenge. Saurfang and Eitrigg would have backed him up.
Would they? Saurfang just wanted to die at that point and Eitrigg’s a nobody. They might have grumbled a bit but the Forsaken were on the rise power-wise and the last Mak’gora’s result was dubious at best. Plus, Sylvanas still gets the right to prepare for combat, which means the dirty tactics come out (‘whoopsie guess a Blight arrow snuck in my quiver, well y’know, rush of combat, can’t feel the difference’).
Judging from what we’ve seen, especially from Saurfang, I would think so.
But this is getting off topic. My point has been that Cairne and Baine are not the same character because we know from history that Cairne wouldn’t have allowed all this to continue without acting. Baine allowed all of it to continue until the very end and his act of defiance put Thunder Bluff in great danger.
Thunder Bluff was always going to be a hostage, and whining about it openly could possibly backfire so he had to be picky with when he executed any kind of resistance. Baine was reading the room and trying to see how many allies he had before going forward with his plan. Once he got the Champion of the Horde on his side, he got a lot more bolstered and knew he had a winning shot. The issue is the Champion of the Horde was, by and large, loyal to Sylvanas until late in BFA. Sure, they might have disagreed with her, but we helped at Teldrassil and we fought alongside literal Scourge-style reanimated Horde at Undercity. We were loyalists until she pushed her agenda too far and revealed her alliegance with the Jailer, and that’s the point we decided to fight for a ‘free Horde’.
Baine knows that the Champion of the Horde doesn’t lose, and he needed them on his side first before making a big play because he knew this wasn’t a fight you win in the open. His father’s death taught him that.
Honor and strength got Cairne killed. Subterfuge and manipulation got Baine victory.
EDIT: As far as the similarity, I see it. Cairne saw an opportunity and took it, same as Baine did, the only problem is that Cairne didn’t have the hindsight his son would and took a poisoned axe to the knee.
Getting us on his side wasn’t what stopped the attack on Thunder Bluff. I wanna say it was the Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0 that stopped it and Baine couldn’t be bothered to show up for that.
And it’s said in game it wasn’t from physical injuries that he didn’t show up, it was because his heart was broken. When you’re the leader of a nation of people and one of the leaders of the Horde, you don’t have time for a broken heart.
And no I still don’t see Baine and Cairne as the same character and it’s a damn shame they had to get rid of Cairne to give us this waste of space as my racial leader.
p.s. If they really were the same thing, there would be no point in getting rid of Cairne. It was done to give us something new.
This is pretty much it, when you are the leader. You have to put aside personal concerns for the good of the group. You have to be the Light in the dark, the boulder in the storm. You simply cannot allow yourself to feel. It’s one of the reasons why few are truly prepared for the burden of Leadership.
Upvote.
This was pretty much a civil war. As far as Baine knew, tauren were going to fight and die. Even if he’s in a damn tent behind the lines you still show up.
God he’s so embarrassing, even as a make believe character.
Thinking on it, Shadowlands would have been a perfect time to get Baine to shape up. Have him meet his father in the afterlife and provide some guidance so Baine could reflect and become a better leader for his people.
Though knowing the writers as I do they’d probably have it that Cairne was proud of him and yadda yadda.
Anytime the alliance gets story they kick butt and take names while their leaders shout glory. Anytime Horde gets lore a beloved lore character dies and our leaders turn emo.
That’s exactly what they did in the heritage quest.
Made me want to vomit.
About all I remember from the Tauren heritage quest is Highmountain and Void creatures.
EDIT: wait, I think I’m confusing the Tauren Heritage with Highmountain recruitment.
Baine’s not a leader, you’re right. He’s had the position thrust upon him, time and time again. His father died, so he was made Chieftain. Garrosh went crazy, so he had to muster and lead a resistance force until Vol’jin arrived. Then Vol’jin died and Sylvanas became Garrosh 2.0, so he was, once more, thrust into a painful and dangerous position of resistance member. He’s constantly had the deck stacked against him time and time again because the rest of the Horde can’t control themselves and fall back on genocidal tendencies. Even now, he’s seen as the de-facto leader of the Horde Council, a position that has been, once more, thrust upon him. He never sought to be a leader, he’s tried to give everyone else a chance to step up so he could follow and know what to do because Baine’s terrified of making the wrong move and getting himself or worse, others hurt for it.
You are underestimating just how damaging to Baine Cairne’s death was. A man, a father, you saw as the tallest, unbreakable mountain and a bastion of honor brought low by treachery from your Warchief, a person supposed to be your leader and have your best interests in mind, and an entire rogue faction of your people. Then a civil war that damn near tears your home apart. Then, in spite of the agony from the first time, it happens again. Strength, honor, peace, all of your ideals falling apart time and time again will absolutely shatter your resolve. And actually turning his axe against the Horde a second time had to be absolutely heart-wrenching. Stone-hearted Warchiefs are how we keep getting handed the villain ball.
We need someone willing to be afraid to die as well as get others killed for personal glory. Paraphrasing a quote: If you don’t fear death, how can you value life?
Cairne died cuz he was a racist and an idiot
True story
Or he could just join the Alliance with some followers, since everything and almost everyone in the Horde seems to be awful. 
If Baine leaves for the Alliance, I’m 90% sure the Tauren and HMT join him.
I’m not even against that. Let loyal Horde member stay in the Horde and those (like Baine), who don’t really seem to like the Horde all that much join the other faction.
He and Mayla already spent quite some time in the Stormwind castle and nobody had a problem with that. Granted, Anduin is not there atm, so I dunno.
People had problems with it.
What people? I’m not talking about players, but rather about npcs.
It’s just kinda irritating to watch Baine turning the Horde into a red Alliance. Because if you want to do that, well, merge the factions and be done with it.
Instead they should just remove the stale race division already and let the races freely decide what faction they want to join. It’s only natural to have individual groups, which don’t really belong in the faction they were born in. In my opinion Baine is one of these cases. Constantly worrying about Anduin and the Alliance as a whole, while the Horde seems to give him depression. xD