M0 drops 400, perfect number IMO
In a previous comment I said that they could change M0 to have no lockout but in reality even that its too good, even HC dg has a daily lockout, best you gonna get is a M0 with daily lockout dropping 400(lfr) gear
that’s pretty good if you ask me
If you do all m0 would you still need m0 loot? I would think you would have pretty much every slot by then.
M+ needs a lockout too.
If it dropped loot off of every boss, I’d say I agree. But that’s not the case.
One of your issues with M+ is that it doesn’t drop enough loot. So you want to make that worse for those who do like it by putting a lockout on it so only one key is run and almost no chance for loot on top of that?
Seriously?
Ask for what you’d prefer over M+, absolutely. But in that, messing up what a large number of players enjoy doesn’t need to be part of the deal.
COULD NOT AGREE MORE!
Dungeons right now just plain suck. They are flavorless. People just run through them as fast as possible. Advanced tactics, strategies, abilities, group composition… it’s all irrelevant.
The thing I like most about Classic is the dungeons. Sure, some of them are a bit too long for my taste, but they are immersive and engaging. Every time I run a dungeon with a different group comp, it FEELS different. Polymorph is actually useful. I think I’ve run a Mythic 7 or 8 once in BFA, never once did anyone call for a polymorph nor was there a situation that called for one since… guess what… we are just clumping up mobs and aoe-dps’ing them down. Same #$%, different speed.
In Classic, a group I was in (4 cloth wearers) wiped on the final boss in Sunken Temple. We figured out what we needed, and the next day some of us formed a new group with a warrior who was able to “offtank” the boss when he sleeped the tank. Success!
I’d love that experience in Retail. Dungeons that take 30-60 minutes, with good rewards, that demand cooperation, communication, and strategy. That make each class feel like they contribute to the group in their own unique ways.
agreed. We need more things like operation mechagon (pre nerfs)
I think part of the issue is how hard it is to actually do a dungeon at an appropriate item level.
Back at launch, base mythics when your whole paty was 320-325 could be fairly challenging for an average pug. Fast forward a month and you would have to try to NOT have most members at 350 so every run is smashed.
If you think about, a +10 dropping 430 would mean its great for groups in the 415 range. How often are pugs running 415 item level reqs for +10s?
Same with Mech. It drops 415, and a party of all 5 membets at 400ish makes it a fairly good challenge. But with so many gear sources and so much time, you can easily fill a group of all 425+
I don’t disagree with your sentiments but essentially what your asking for exists in the game in the form of Operation: Mechagon and Karazhan during legion. Both were absolutely amazing dungeons and I do hope they continue to add at least one per expansion.
M+ can be very fun but I found the M+ dungeons a lot less fun in BfA than Legion.
That’s been around for a long time. Well before Mythic content was introduced. All that’s changed is the reason for rushers to speed though content.
I agree, it would be cool if we can get back 5 man content/dungeons that don’t require to beat a timer. I miss the days when patience and taking things slow and absorbing the experience were important.
As do I. Unfortunately class balance is in the gutter for BFA. So I have big hopes 9.x is going to fix this for good.
5 man balance is quite different from raid balance. You can’t have inferior tank / heal / dps choices for dungeons. Every class has to be as useful as the next.
You and I have just discussed it enough that we have come to an understanding.
So basically Remove the Timer and instead make M+ tears of difficulty instead of Speed Runs and you have a decent Solution, something like an increase of % Hp,damage,defense per tear on the mobs until it gets down right crazy or impossible. Now that is a challenge I can get behind!
CC would be more interesting to me if stunlocking an enemy and doing your rotation had more overlap. If it felt something like Metal Gear Rising, God Hand, Bayonetta, God of War, etc. where I’m not just doing a rotation but totally dominating the enemy, doing a combo to stagger the enemy then triggering a quick-kill animation or zandatsu. Or for a more MMORPG-based example, you had Controllers and Dominators in City of Heroes. You couldn’t do a damage rotation on one of those without also controlling the battlefield, it was like a Frost Mage going SSJ3.
Agree with OP.
Herioc 5 dungeon difficulty was compromised in order for M+ to be a viable progression option. Leading to a massive drop in casual player quality.
Mythic + should be its own tournament realm thing without the gear and ilvl bloat bleeding into the mainstream game.
It is just another “grind” now to find a reliable community or pug.
We aren’t all raging neck beards blizz.
Also. CC should be necessary for all content including speed runs (for skipping) and solo.
This is a strategy platform with a thin RP vaneer. Help make Azeroth think again. (rather than just mindlessly preform simmed Dps rotations)
I don’t mind a speed run in there (think 45min baron run), I just don’t want the whole dungeon experience to only be speed running greater rifts.
I’d like the option to do both. Standard five mans should give you raid prep gear, and we should have dungeons that scale in difficulty in relation to the release of new raids. Getting two or three raid themed dungeons with prep gear that show off story, as well as some lovely environments? That’d be great. Mythic+ should be as different to raiding as PVP is. Raiding is you vs. the game, and the same goes for dungeons. PVP is you vs. another player. Mythic + is you vs. the timer. You could spin off a couple more things into that - not only dungeon runs but maze races, something interesting that first that timed theme.
I understand and side with OP to an extent. M+ can be a bit repetitious but I think it brings a sense of competitiveness for a lot of players. I for one loved the MoP challenge modes that forced your gear down and made you play smart. I like the idea of M+ because of the scaling factor. Those old dungeons that were long and hard were certainly fun, but there was no sense of doing them once you got the gear. I think M+ brings a lot of replay value to the table, but I believe there should be a better reward for higher M+ like the awesome transmog gear that you’d get from MoP and WoD challenge modes.
So looking at the upcoming Shadowlands content patch, it looks like they are doubling down on making M+ even more lucrative by giving you the choice of loot from 3 items + currency 
They are also adding a new dungeon for 1-5 players that fits with what you’re looking for.
I’m not sure what you want here. You claim to not want M+ removed, just things added to bring back a “good” (in your opinion) 5 man experience, but you completely ignore what they are bringing because they made a fix to the M+ system that people who enjoy it have been wanting for a very long time?